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Projector lenses
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:01 pm    Post subject: Projector lenses Reply with quote
My new year's resolution is to not become obsessed with a whole new category of lenses. However, in case I do, I want to do it right by being informed. If there is already a thread about projector lenses in general, I have not been able to find it, so please advise.

My idea for this thread is to report on projector lenses where there is experience and to share knowledge already gained concerning register, challenges or solutions in adapting, image circles, and character of images produced... and whatever I have left out that is pertinent.

I have purchased my first projector lens and am considering two or three others. I do not know if I will encounter totally different challenges in adapting, or if there may be some standards regarding things like register. I would also like to learn what to expect from the various projector sizes; 35mm, 16mm, 8mm, etc. What to avoid and any other information that can help us all be informed buyers.

I am at square one, so have nothing to offer at this time; can someone else help by starting off?


PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Projection lenses is similar to the photographic/enlarging lenses. For NEX with 1.5x crop factor, you will need a 35mm projection lens to cover the whole sensor(a 16mm projection lens with FL 50mm or above may barely cover the sensor depends on the design). The modern ones with MC coating will be better in resolution and contrast(e.g. Schneider Super-Cinelux). The old ones will have more characters(e.g. Meopta Meostigmat 1.4/70).


PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
As Calvin said SK Cinelux (26 focal lengths available all F2 24mm-100mm) is an excellent start point for mirrorless 1.5x crop.

If you want Full Frame take a look at the SK slide projection lens normally called AV Cine Xenon, they go up to 300mm and can sometimes be had for peanuts.

Cinelux prices are rising


Classic old school would be Rathenower lenses and some Taylor Hobson

good luck


PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The only one I own, which I have not yet used, is a 1.8/120 Polkinar. I have no idea of what to expect.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
An 8mm projector lens isnt likely to be much use as the rear end of it almost touches the film gate. The clearance is about a centimetre. Certainly too close for my Nex5. The image circle isnt going to be too big either. I imagine a 16mm proj lens may be better but you could have the same problem I think (I'v not tried a 16mm). 35mm movie lenses will be better and of course a slide projector lens will be best.

I jammed my slide projector lens into a focusing helical and light sealed it with blutak. That works just fine. If I didnt need the lens for my projector I would have made a permanent conversion.

EDIT:
What camera you use will make a difference of course. The FFD will be the most important. Of course projector lenses dont really have a flange focal distance, its the distance between the rear element and the film thats important and that can vary between makes.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Two 16mm projector lenses converted to Sony NEX(fitted into barrel of the Helios-44M-4 with flange replaced by Sony E bayonet).

16КП-1,2/50 (16KP-1.2/50) http://nukemall.livejournal.com/37620.html





Samples:











Carl Zeiss Jena Kipronar 1,4/70 http://nukemall.livejournal.com/59750.html



Samples:









PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Good info.

Nukemall: If I am reading this correctly, the 16mm lens has 26mm between rear element and sensor at infinity. Correct? Are all 16mm the same register? The Polkinar I have is 16mm.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
Nukemall: If I am reading this correctly, the 16mm lens has 26mm between rear element and sensor at infinity.


Yes, 16KP-1,2/50 has 26.1mm back focal distance.

woodrim wrote:
Are all 16mm the same register? The Polkinar I have is 16mm.


Projector lenses don't have any "register" or "flange focal distance" because don't have mounting flange. Only back focal distance caused by the lens focal length and optical design.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A few examples from the slide projector lens + Ricoh GXR

Plankar 85/2.5







Фотографии в альбоме «Plankar 85/2.5 от слайд-проектора», автор serkol64 на Яндекс.Фотках


Leitz Dimaron 100_2.8




[more]

Фотографии в альбоме «Leitz Dimaron 100_2.8 проекционный», автор serkol64 на Яндекс.Фотках



Diaplan Meyer Optik 80/2.8













Фотографии в альбоме «Diaplan Meyer Optik 80/2.8 объектив от слайд-проектора, без диафрагмы», автор serkol64 на Яндекс.Фотках


Ihagee 75_2.5

Фотографии в альбоме «Ihagee 75_2.5 от слайд-проектора, без диафрагмы», автор serkol64 на Яндекс.Фотках



[more]


PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Each lens is different. When we used a Bell and Howell 16mm projector at Uni, I sometimes had to change to a long focus lens for large halls, some of them sat so far to the front of the focusing mount that they wobbled. Whereas the shorter lengths went right back. There is no standardisation.

The lens stuck into the Helios mount is good, this is doing exactly what I suggested, using the body as a focusing helical. There is some spectacular fall off, but the shallow DOF hides it. Nice images. The image circle is made pretty big on this lens so in practical use the lens is using only the central part for the projection.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I prefer old fast projection lenses from well known makers. They are more affordable than the photographic lenses from the same maker.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nukemall wrote:

woodrim wrote:
Are all 16mm the same register? The Polkinar I have is 16mm.


Projector lenses don't have any "register" or "flange focal distance" because don't have mounting flange. Only back focal distance caused by the lens focal length and optical design.


Okay, I believe I understand and it makes sense. Unless the term register is always used in reference to flange, and I suspect not, in the case of these projection lenses, it would always be measured from the rear of the glass. However, it would be so variable that each and every lens make and model would need to be measured separately; the measurement always at infinity. As you stated, it is influenced by focal length and optical design. While focal lengths could offer some consistency in measures, the optical designs will then introduce variables again. So this means each and every specific lens make, model, and focal length must be measured separately with the only consistency being within those specific examples. This means we can still learn from each other by documenting the specifics of each lens. I'm thinking it will also be helpful to measure the diameters of the lens barrel.


16КП-1,2/50 (16KP-1.2/50) This lens seems to offer some special or unique characteristics. This is more where my interest lies rather than an optically well adjusted lens. I have plenty of camera lenses that offer optical perfection.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You've got it.

Thinking about the post when I mentioned the long lens on the B&H projector. The lens was a Kodak from an older projector. For amateur use - 8mm and 16mm and cheap slide projectors, the lens supplied with it was the only one ever needed. No one ever imagined that 50 years later people would be taking photos through them!

Its an interesting side to our hobby.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
This means we can still learn from each other by documenting the specifics of each lens. I'm thinking it will also be helpful to measure the diameters of the lens barrel.


External diameters of the 35mm and 70mm cine film projection lenses mostly standardized - 62.5, 82.5 and 104mm. Many lenses for slide projectors has 52mm(2'') external diameter and some lenses for 16mm cine projectors has 38mm(1.5'').

Other 16mm projectors:
BELL & HOWELL 100-200-300 SERIES - 1.156" DIAMETER
BELL & HOWELL 500-1500-2500 SERIES - 2.062" DIAMETER
DEVRY-B&H-RCA-JAN-VIEWLEX - 2.062" DIAMETER
GRAFLEX-SINGER-KALART-RCA 400 SERIES-AMPRO - 1.184" DIAMETER
GRAFLEX-SINGER 1100 SERIES-LARGE BARREL - 2.062" DIAMETER
KODAK PAGEANT SERIES - 1.156" DIAMETER
ELMO-ALL SERIES-KODAK CT1000 - 40mm DIAMETER
EIKI-ALL SERIES - 42.5 mm DIAMETER


PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
I prefer old fast projection lenses from well known makers. They are more affordable than the photographic lenses from the same maker.

+1 and usally same good or even better.... but adoption is costly too and may lens is bulky , non convenient to use
Meopta,ROW , Carl Zeiss Jena, Schenider, French lenses etc many of them very very good, I have bunch of them , none of them converted yet , Henry has a good solution to convert adopt them, (Vnex creator)

http://forum.mflenses.com/meopta-meostigmat-70mm-f1-0-any-experience-t69044,highlight,%2Bmeopta.html


PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ROW 70mm f1.6 Sony NEX-3 I do believe different than any photographic lens



PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's a wonderful portrait. Does ROW stand for something ?


PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
That's a wonderful portrait. Does ROW stand for something ?

http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Rathenower_Optische_Werke


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ROW stands for rathenower optische werke.
They are 35 mm movieprojectorlenses made by Zeiss.
Very soft, light and beautiful colors.......


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've posted it here before, but here's a Pentacon AV projector lens adapted to Micro43: http://sjp.id.au/adapted-lenses/meyer-optik-trioplan-lens/

Samples of the lens on that page too. It's exactly the same lens as the Meyer Diaplan.

Coincidentally, I went out to the hardware store today to buy some tubing to try and adapt a very heavy Russian lens with a Petzval design. That one is going to be a challenge. Built like a tank. Should be ok on my Nikon DSLR though, as the bigger body and sturdy mount should accommodate it better in use. Will post photos if I get it done.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Polkinar I mentioned earlier in this thread is so-so at best. I have a Diaplan now and while maybe it is similar, I have yet to match Trioplan-like results. However, based on comments and what I have observed, the Diaplan may be sharper than 100mm Trioplan.





PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
35KP 120mm f1.8


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
KO 140M 140mm f1.8


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Carl Zeiss Jena Kipronar 120mm f1.9


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Okay, now who wants to look at my flower and brick? :-/
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