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not the best 28mm, bub best 28mm with 3Dpop effect & com
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:01 pm    Post subject: not the best 28mm, bub best 28mm with 3Dpop effect & com Reply with quote
Hello All, I Like this forum, I'm a big fan actually =) Wink

My level of knowledge in English language is not perfect.

I plan to buy one 28mm (or one 35mm but a 28mm better actytually), the goal is to deep inside streetphotography experience.

I think that the MOST IMPORTANT point for could be the 3D Pop effect.

I also would like a perennial choice : so certainly a retrofocus formula seems a better choice than some Biogon...even if the result with some Biogon seems ok actually.

I also think that for streetphotography a compact lens is more suitable.

I'm using one fuji X-M1 and my next camera will certainly have a full frame sensor.

FIRST SELECTION: Twisted Evil

-> ELMARIT 28mm 2.8 aspherical with one retrofocus formula.
52 x 30mm ( 46mm with the hood )
70 minimum focus distance
As it seems easy to found one used version for an interesting price, it caught my attention.
And this lens is the most compact never done by Leica.

-> PENTAX 31mm FA limited who caught my attention.
65 x 68.5 mm
30 cm minumum focus distance heheh
I know that this FA lens was not optimised for numeric sensors instead of the DA range who use also more aspherical elements.
I also do not know if it is a retrofocus formula or not and if this have one incidence or not...cause some times due to "unusual" optical formula it seems that somes results could be interesting =)
And I also do not know it the peoples who use this lens or "objectives" in view of the qualities...I had read many times that one article said this lens is one of the best of the world but for me this was tested in 2002 or around, before the big numeric boom, not sure of the real value of this one...

SECOND SELECTION: Twisted Evil

-> Biogon T* 2,8/28 ZM
53 mm X 62 mm with one absolutely horrible lens hood (not sure that this will not be one issue for streetphoto as this could attract attention)
50cm minmum focus distance
Not a retrofocus optical formula but as it is a Zeiss lens interesting to speak about

-> Distagon 28mm F/2.0 Canon or Nikon mount, not a ZM version
6.40 x 9.30 cm tooo big
24cm minimum focus distance

-> Distagon 35mm 1.4 ZM
6.32 x 6.53 cm
0.7m minimum focus distance

-> Voigtlander 28mm F/2 ultron
55 X 51mm
70cm minimum focus distance
I didnt want one voigtlander this time for me but allways interesting to add


As I said, mine main goal is to have the most 3D pop effect. But as allways with the choice of the lens I have to make some compromise as all advantages in one lens is never possible cause one optical choice is allways one equilibrium between good and bad points

I will update all this if I have new ideas, but if I take a look on the selection it just clear that the Elmarit would be a good choice, the only question will be the estimation of his 3D pop effect in comparaison to others lenses, thanks in advance.

thanks a lot Wink


PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You will get a lot more pop with a FF sensor, so that is a wise upgrade if pop is important to you.

Also, one technique that can add a lot of 3d to an image is focus stacking. I did this stack handheld with a 30mm lens on my Sony a850.



PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I absolutely follow you about a FF, and thanks a lot for your reply

but for the moment I choose to spent my money in lenses, and when fuji will upgrade their camera i will see if I choose to stay on fuji or not, but yea thats the long term goal

and yea, i also thought about focus stacking, and brenizer method too, but usually i do not take the time to post treat, so i'm looking for the best result without post traiting for the moment, thanks a lot


PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, I have never owned a Distagon 35mm f/1.4. But from what I have seen it has nice pop Wink
A rangefinder lens with a focus adapter would be a great match for your fuji to get much closer focus distance.

Last edited by Nordentro on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Also, one technique that can add a lot of 3d to an image is focus stacking. I did this stack handheld with a 30mm lens on my Sony a850.


That is an impressive sample Ian!
Like 1 small


PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cheers, it's about a dozen frames stacked in photoshop then some tweaking of the shadows and highlights and a bit of sharpening. Not complicated really.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
If an A7 series FF camera is in your plans, I'd not recommend any of the RF lenses.
They don't have as good off center performance (and I mean off-center, not even just edges).

The Voigtlander 21/1.8 Ultron does work though and imo is one of the best all rounder walkabout lens that work on an A7.
Yes, rather wide from your requirement of 28mm, but if you want RF lens, work well on A7 and fast aperture, with a wide FOV, then this is worth to consider.


A break in the calm by jenkwang, on Flickr


20141207-DSC07431-2400 by jenkwang, on Flickr

The Pentax FA31ltd is very nice lens for me.
All the great Pentax qualities (smallish size with AF; build, rich contrast and colors)
Yes, very '3D' too in more situations (and it is situational, lighting, bkgnd dependent imo)


20150626-DSC04703 by jenkwang, on Flickr


20150626-DSC04619 by jenkwang, on Flickr


20150626-DSC04796 by jenkwang, on Flickr


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Both of those lenses look excellent! Your son looks like a very intelligent, inquisitive little man too. Smile


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 1.9 ultron has many fans. As noted the Sony without a mod does not like it on the edges.

In general I would get a f/2 lens if you really need to separate your subject. The 65USD Kiron 28/2 is fine really.


DSC07539 by unoh7, Kiron 28/2 WO on A7.mod

The FD 28/2 and Nikkor 28/2 and the others are all similar in performance. The RF lenses will beat them on the right sensor, and certainly on your fuji.

If you come into some money there's the 28 cron:

Prima Donna by unoh7, on Flickr

Now down to 2200 Wink This lens would be fantastic on the fuji, but so so edge-wise on the Sony A7, where really you need the native FE28/2 which is not superexpenisve and no non-native 28 will beat it on that camera.

You mention the ZM 35/1.4. This is one of the very best 35s ever made. Again fantastic on your fuji, but just past OK on a sony without any sensor modifications. On a Leica body or Sony with Kolari mod this is unbelievable lens which no other you mention is really near to. Only Leica FLE can compete Smile


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Minolfan wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Also, one technique that can add a lot of 3d to an image is focus stacking. I did this stack handheld with a 30mm lens on my Sony a850.


That is an impressive sample Ian!
Like 1 small


+1 awesome!


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
My suggestion would be canon fd 24 2.8
It may seems like an odd choice but when used at 2.8 it gives nice 3d pop. It is not an expensive lens so you could try it out.

Couple of good examples on a7

http://forum.mflenses.com/trying-canon-fd-24-2-8-for-portraits-t72739.html


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
uhoh7 wrote:
The 1.9 ultron has many fans.


So am I. Wink

Here are some examples from the CV 28mm/F1.9 Ultron on APS-C (Ricoh GXR-M) which is certainly worth to consider as well:












PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
You will get a lot more pop with a FF sensor, so that is a wise upgrade if pop is important to you.

Also, one technique that can add a lot of 3d to an image is focus stacking. I did this stack handheld with a 30mm lens on my Sony a850.


Gorgeous ! May I ask you how this technique works ?

Damn the Ultron pics, now there's another gem on the wishlist !


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are many videos on YouTube which explain how to do it. Just type "focus stacking"
You need a software to merge the different shots. Photoshop can do that.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Both of those lenses look excellent! Your son looks like a very intelligent, inquisitive little man too. Smile


Thank you for the very kind words. Happy Dog


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
As suggested by Uhoh7, the Kiron 28/2 isn't bad.
I refrained from mentioning it as I had some reservations on its edge performance on an unmodified A7.
Center area is very sharp though when stopped down.



20141003-DSC03693 by jenkwang, on Flickr



20121224-IMG_0204 by jenkwang, on Flickr



DSC0282720140905ILCE-7 by jenkwang, on Flickr


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
Here are some examples from the CV 28mm/F1.9 Ultron on APS-C (Ricoh GXR-M) which is certainly worth to consider as well:


Hey, I really liked that last one. Smile


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
None wide is better than another for 3D effects, although a larger aperture and/or focal can help.

The 3D effect depends on the lighting, focus adjustment, subject distance, color, framing, contrast and background scene, experience, edition... plus lens whose impact on the results is limited and minor than the previous combination. In my opinion.

Happy shots!


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
fwcetus wrote:
tb_a wrote:
Here are some examples from the CV 28mm/F1.9 Ultron on APS-C (Ricoh GXR-M) which is certainly worth to consider as well:


Hey, I really liked that last one. Smile


Thank you!
Just a nice lens on a good camera. Wink


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
anktonio wrote:
None wide is better than another for 3D effects, although a larger aperture and/or focal can help.

The 3D effect depends on the lighting, focus adjustment, subject distance, color, framing, contrast and background scene, experience, edition... plus lens whose impact on the results is limited and minor than the previous combination. In my opinion.

I think that there is at least one factor (besides just aperture and focal length) that can matter for increasing a 3D effect, and that is field curvature.

With significant field curvature, it is possible to have more distant objects that happen to be farther from center of the field even more out of focus than they would otherwise be with a lens with a flatter field.

[I think this may be part of what happens with the 28/2 Distagon/Hollywood design, whether Zeiss or Pentax.]

I do agree, however, that external factors would still have the greatest effect upon producing any possible 3D effect.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hello

thanks a LOT for all your replies Wink

@Nordentro :
Yea i'm absolutely sure that the distagon 35mm 1/4 have a beautiful 3D pop effect

In fact im totally sure that all ZEISS distagon are just incredible; but they are loud and big usually


@pinholecam :
I allready have the 21 voigtlander 1.8

thanks for all your pictures Wink

hum, i see the FA 31mm have one interesting 3D effect

@uhoh7
hum, the Kiron 28mm F/2 seems really interesting, I have a friend who could be interested about this one

hum the cron F/2, 40.7mm X 53mm lol, it's not nice to train myself in that kind of unreal world ahahaha

and yea the ZM 35 A.4 is superlative

I will make some search about Kolari mod, never hear about Wink

hum never hear about the ultron 28mm 1.9 ouaw I see, it is the ancestor of the F2 or the optical formula are not the same at all?
> have to read this: http://www.kenrockwell.com/voigtlander/28mm-f19.htm

@Ash
Canon fd 24 2.8
hum, I have to admit, seems to have one interesting 3D pop effect, and yea not expensive, but i will not go under 28mm sorry (but one friend will be really interested about so thx)
68mm x 75.5mm


@anktonio
I take your POV
It is really hard to found one objective POV about this 3D pop effect ahahaha, still trying to understand


@fwcetus
really interesting this notion of field curvature
I will make some search about for SURE Wink
what do you mean by what happens with your selection of 28 ?
Do you mean that the 3D pop effect have something special on the SMC pentax 28mm F/2 & Carl Zeiss 'Hollywood' Distagon T* 28mm f/2 ?
Cause it is a retrofocus formula so could be interesting ( In the same direction I also hear good stuffs about the Zuiko 28 F2, but never known anything about 3D)


Just to be clear: I'm totally sure that the directions or angle of the light or others variables have to with the 3D pop BUT for me some lenses have more of this "character" and I just wish to know which one =)

Thanks a LOT for your replies, it is really nice=) Wink Wink


PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Contax/Yashica Zeiss Distagon 28/2.8 and 35/2.8 have great pop and micro contrast, and are quite small.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
immortalblue wrote:

hum never hear about the ultron 28mm 1.9 ouaw I see, it is the ancestor of the F2 or the optical formula are not the same at all?
> have to read this: http://www.kenrockwell.com/voigtlander/28mm-f19.htm

Some here may be better able to tell you, but there is a real world difference to the users, and much comparison Check some of these posts:
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=CV+28/1.9+site:rangefinderforum.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

If you already have a CV 21/1.8 then you are ready for anything. Smile

But far more than any lens, as others here allude, the upgrade to a full frame camera will make the most difference. Looking at some of the lenses you like, the obvious choices are:
Leica M240 about 3800 used and able to shoot most mounts via adapter and EVF.
Leica M9 about 2200 used (get a fresh sensor), fantastic with M and LTM glass. Nothing on earth will shoot that Elmarit 28/2.8 ASPH or ZM 35/1.4 like these first two choices, or their variants like the MM or ME.
A7 Kolari you can buy one direct from Kolari for about 1100. The same mod can be done to any version of the A7. These are great with RF lenses and film lenses.
Stock A7x These will shoot everything very decently in the center of the frame. Film lenses, and especially M mount lenses have edge performance ruined by the thick cover glass (hence kolari mod which replaces the 1.9mm sony sensor cover with at .8mm cover), which adds FC to everything 35 and wider. Your 21/1.8 is pretty good, but still somewhat effected. Many really don't seem to care, but you sound fairly picky, as I am, and may be frustrated with the stock sony. Something like the elmarit 28/2.8 ASPH is really compromised.

But now you can find a good used A7 for 600USD Smile

These options were either really expensive or did not exist just a few years ago Smile


Hair in the air by unoh7, 28cron Leica M9

Leica M9 with 1937 CZJ 50/1.5:

M9 by unoh7, People think this is a film camera, and usually relax more than in front of my A7 Smile


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's not strictly what you asked for but a very discreet if wide combination is the X-M1 and C/V 15mm . Just the ticket for getting up close and personal. As small as the A7 series is, they work fine with manual SLR lenses and you'll find a lot of them that can shine on FF, understandably. Import duties for Kolari more may take the gloss off the total cost and seeing as it's best suited for wide angle R/F lenses may be a bit of a "one trick pony".


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
uhoh7 wrote:

But far more than any lens, as others here allude, the upgrade to a full frame camera will make the most difference.


Sorry to argue a little bit against your preferences, but IMHO you slightly overestimate the consequences of the sensor upgrade to FF. The question is only how you select your lenses for the different sensor formats to achieve similar results and finally the bigger sensor will only outperform the smaller ones if we are talking about extreme large magnifications which are rarely done by anybody, besides of cropping possibilities.

I took the liberty to show your portrait example posted above how it would look alike if done with a crop sensor (APS-C) instead. I do hope you don't mind:



So all you would miss if done under exactly the same circumstances with the smaller sensor is a little bit of the surroundings, i.e. the background. In this case I would rather prefer the crop over the FF picture as the background is blurred anyway.

So actually it's not only the sensor size but also your behavior or strategy in terms of lens selection and distance to object. As I am using many different sensor and/or film formats I wouldn't state that FF is always "the better" one. Every sensor format has it's advantages and also disadvantages. At the end of the day it's purely a matter of taste and of course, it's more easy to use only one sensor and/or film format to adopt better to the different behaviors or implications of the used lens-sensor/film combinations.

Just my two cents. Wink
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