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Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 7:15 pm    Post subject: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
On all of my Nikon lenses that have the prong, it is located at exactly F5.6 regardless of the maximum or minimum aperture of the lens. This makes sense as F5.6 is the center and the aperture ring will only move to maximum or minimum aperture settings. My curiosity is with the AI/AIS lenses because the cut in the aperture ring is different on each lens. Seems to be based on the maximum aperture. I don't understand why they did not use the same linear scale as the prong. Now I have to tell my Df the maximum aperture of each lens that I use.
Pete


PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
Pete wrote:
On all of my Nikon lenses that have the prong, it is located at exactly F5.6 regardless of the maximum or minimum aperture of the lens. This makes sense as F5.6 is the center and the aperture ring will only move to maximum or minimum aperture settings. My curiosity is with the AI/AIS lenses because the cut in the aperture ring is different on each lens. Seems to be based on the maximum aperture. I don't understand why they did not use the same linear scale as the prong. Now I have to tell my Df the maximum aperture of each lens that I use.
Pete


Yes, as I understand it the variation in indexing marks is necessary because the lens has to communicate the range of aperture settings to the camera, and each lens is different.
Because your camera can't "talk" to the AI-s lens via electrical contacts, it needs a starting point to be able to correctly display the apertures used.
That is why you must let the camera know the maximum aperture, and it works the rest out from there.
It's the same on my D300
Not a bad system really for old lenses. Some other cameras aren't able to know what aperture they are using.
OH


PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
Because your camera can't "talk" to the AI-s lens via electrical contacts, it needs a starting point to be able to correctly display the apertures used.
...
Not a bad system really for old lenses. Some other cameras aren't able to know what aperture they are using.
OH


C/Y does this with an extra metal tab that tells what the minimum apeture is.


PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
kansalliskala wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
Because your camera can't "talk" to the AI-s lens via electrical contacts, it needs a starting point to be able to correctly display the apertures used.
...
Not a bad system really for old lenses. Some other cameras aren't able to know what aperture they are using.
OH


C/Y does this with an extra metal tab that tells what the minimum apeture is.


Like some others do.

However, Nikon is unique as it's the one and only modern digital SLR manufacturer where you can use ALL lenses (even the oldest ones) directly without any adapter. I think that at least in this discipline Nikon is far better than any other manufacturer. So it's not the most convenient way for usage but far better than nothing, where you have either to memorize the used F-stop or write it down manually.


PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:

However, Nikon is unique as it's the one and only modern digital SLR manufacturer where you can use ALL lenses (even the oldest ones) directly without any adapter. I think that at least in this discipline Nikon is far better than any other manufacturer. So it's not the most convenient way for usage but far better than nothing, where you have either to memorize the used F-stop or write it down manually.


That is not correct, pre AI lenses can t be mounted on some Nikon DSRLs (on the D700 for example), the Nikon Df is the first body that can take also pre AI lenses.

https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5366/~/what-is-the-difference-between-an-ai-lens,-an-ai-s-lens,-and-non-ai-lens%3F

Tomas


PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
tomasg wrote:
tb_a wrote:

However, Nikon is unique as it's the one and only modern digital SLR manufacturer where you can use ALL lenses (even the oldest ones) directly without any adapter. I think that at least in this discipline Nikon is far better than any other manufacturer. So it's not the most convenient way for usage but far better than nothing, where you have either to memorize the used F-stop or write it down manually.


That is not correct, pre AI lenses can t be mounted on some Nikon DSRLs (on the D700 for example), the Nikon Df is the first body that can take also pre AI lenses.

https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5366/~/what-is-the-difference-between-an-ai-lens,-an-ai-s-lens,-and-non-ai-lens%3F

Tomas


actually some cheaper models like D3200 do take pre-ai-lenses, but you don't get metering


PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
tomasg wrote:
tb_a wrote:

However, Nikon is unique as it's the one and only modern digital SLR manufacturer where you can use ALL lenses (even the oldest ones) directly without any adapter. I think that at least in this discipline Nikon is far better than any other manufacturer. So it's not the most convenient way for usage but far better than nothing, where you have either to memorize the used F-stop or write it down manually.


That is not correct, pre AI lenses can t be mounted on some Nikon DSRLs (on the D700 for example), the Nikon Df is the first body that can take also pre AI lenses.

https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5366/~/what-is-the-difference-between-an-ai-lens,-an-ai-s-lens,-and-non-ai-lens%3F

Tomas


So what? I didn't state that this is the case on ALL of their bodies...
It's nevertheless an unique feature....


PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
tomasg wrote:
tb_a wrote:

However, Nikon is unique as it's the one and only modern digital SLR manufacturer where you can use ALL lenses (even the oldest ones) directly without any adapter. I think that at least in this discipline Nikon is far better than any other manufacturer. So it's not the most convenient way for usage but far better than nothing, where you have either to memorize the used F-stop or write it down manually.


That is not correct, pre AI lenses can t be mounted on some Nikon DSRLs (on the D700 for example), the Nikon Df is the first body that can take also pre AI lenses.

https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5366/~/what-is-the-difference-between-an-ai-lens,-an-ai-s-lens,-and-non-ai-lens%3F

Tomas


So what? I didn't state that this is the case on ALL of their bodies...
It's nevertheless an unique feature....


Both in real life and on forums, many times i heard of Nikon users buying pre AI lenses only to find out they cannot be used on their body. It s worth specifying that there are some restrictions, exceptions, it can be misleading not to mention it.

Tomas


PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice as it is to be able to use all AI and AIS lenses on my D600, it would be even nicer if the camera detected a lens change and popped-up a menu of the lenses I have already added to the database; a one click option, and avoiding the problem of forgetting to tell the camera the correct lens.
Still, when you have told the camera correctly, the information appears in the EXIF data which is nice (unlike adapted MF lenses on mirrorless).

Zooms are more of a problem; where do you list them in your database? But I have mostly given up on MF zooms as they don't really offer much benefit over my modern kit zoom.


PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Basilisk wrote:
Nice as it is to be able to use all AI and AIS lenses on my D600, it would be even nicer if the camera detected a lens change and popped-up a menu of the lenses I have already added to the database; a one click option, and avoiding the problem of forgetting to tell the camera the correct lens.
Still, when you have told the camera correctly, the information appears in the EXIF data which is nice (unlike adapted MF lenses on mirrorless).

Zooms are more of a problem; where do you list them in your database? But I have mostly given up on MF zooms as they don't really offer much benefit over my modern kit zoom.


On my D700 i programmed the the Fn button + front wheel to change the lens i use from the non CPU list i have. For zooms I read somewhere that it s best to use the longest FL and thus usually the slowest f value, but i don t have a mf zoom.


PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The modification to use non-ai lenses on modern bodies that have the tab is very easy to do and doesn't require any any special skills.


PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
araucaria wrote:
The modification to use non-ai lenses on modern bodies that have the tab is very easy to do and doesn't require any any special skills.


I've done that. Also , non AI lenses with a stick on chip meter perfectly well with the D40 and up.


PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 12:04 am    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:

It's nevertheless an unique feature....


Unique? Why? Pentax does it and better too. You can mount all K-mount lenses without worrying about jamming the tab, and you get metering.


PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
Gardener wrote:
tb_a wrote:

It's nevertheless an unique feature....


Unique? Why? Pentax does it and better too. You can mount all K-mount lenses without worrying about jamming the tab, and you get metering.


Dang, I almost thought I was gonna be the one to point this out. But you stole my thunder, Gardener.

But you know, when I was reading the first few messages in this thread, I was getting something of a flashback to using the really old Nikon Fs and their really old metered finders. And as I recall, not only did the lens's aperture have to be set to f/5.6, but there was a setting on the finder that needed to be set as well in order for the camera to properly sync with that lens. So something old is new again, seams to me. Nikon finally got rid of that tedium with the F's Photomic FTn finder, btw, but you still had to rack the aperture ring back and forth all the way from minimum to maximum, to index the finder's meter with the lens.


PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 3:04 am    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
Gardener wrote:
tb_a wrote:

It's nevertheless an unique feature....


Unique? Why? Pentax does it and better too. You can mount all K-mount lenses without worrying about jamming the tab, and you get metering.


1. Not possible for the old M42, Takumar bayonet and SMC-Pentax-M lenses and
2. no FF digital body available (yet).

So only true for Pentax-A MF lenses and on APSC-bodies so far.....

I was really fed up when I had to cut off the metal spring for the aperture to use a Takumar bayonet lens not only fully open on my K20D. Mad To use M42 lenses with M/A switch is far better but there is also no communication about the aperture between the lens and the body likewise to the above mentioned K-mount lenses. Pentax-M lenses are also only usable fully open which doesn't make sense.

Nikon is definitely better AND UNIQUE in this discipline. Nevertheless I don't have any Nikon camera. Neither analog nor digital. In terms of lens compatibility it would have been better to use Nikon instead.... Wink

With my Minolta gear it was clear even in analog times, that there are two different systems MF and AF. However, within those groups live is also very easy. That is another concept compared to Nikon or Pentax.


PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 3:17 am    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
Gardener wrote:
tb_a wrote:

It's nevertheless an unique feature....


Unique? Why? Pentax does it and better too. You can mount all K-mount lenses without worrying about jamming the tab, and you get metering.


Dang, I almost thought I was gonna be the one to point this out. But you stole my thunder, Gardener.

But you know, when I was reading the first few messages in this thread, I was getting something of a flashback to using the really old Nikon Fs and their really old metered finders. And as I recall, not only did the lens's aperture have to be set to f/5.6, but there was a setting on the finder that needed to be set as well in order for the camera to properly sync with that lens. So something old is new again, seams to me. Nikon finally got rid of that tedium with the F's Photomic FTn finder, btw, but you still had to rack the aperture ring back and forth all the way from minimum to maximum, to index the finder's meter with the lens.


Michael, read my answer to Gardener. Wink
I know what I am talking about. I double checked this with my K20D operating manual to be 100% correct.....


PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: Nikon AI / AIS Curiousity Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
Gardener wrote:
tb_a wrote:

It's nevertheless an unique feature....


Unique? Why? Pentax does it and better too. You can mount all K-mount lenses without worrying about jamming the tab, and you get metering.


1. Not possible for the old M42, Takumar bayonet and SMC-Pentax-M lenses and


Don't bring M42 up in here. I specifically said K-mount. Or I may start discussing Pronea.

What on Earth made you think you can't use M-lenses on digital Pentax? There are some quirks - as in you have to use full manual and stop down metering, but, unlike Nikon, every Pentax body meters with manual lenses, and it is a way better solution that say non-Ai Nikkors on D3xxx and D5xxx.

Quote:
2. no FF digital body available (yet).


So what? I didn't state that this makes ALL Pentax bodies superior.

Quote:
Nikon is definitely better AND UNIQUE in this discipline.


No, no, no, no and no. The only Nikon body that can take every Nikkor without loss of metering is Df. Everything else has limitations. Pentax enjoys wider array of compatible bodies, and its SMC-A lenses are compatible to greater degree than Ai's on Nikon.


PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gardener,

The thread began about "quirky" communication between Nikon bodies and certain lenses. I am everything else but a Nikon expert. However, there is at least a camera which is able to communicate with all lenses ever produced by themselves.
I do have Pentax cameras and all lenses form their different production lines. The only MF lenses which are working as designed on digital Pentax are their SMC-A lenses. There is no doubt about that.
If any other MF lenses are being used then at least there is no communication at all between the lens and the body. Furthermore the old K-mount lenses will not meter correctly as the lens stays always fully open when mounted on camera. The only way to change this, is to "modify" the lens mechanically. However, as soon as you make this, the lens will not work correctly also on old Pentax film bodies as then only the stop down method (like M on the old M42 lenses with M/A switch) will be possible.
So, there is a Nikon capable of communicating with the old lenses or maybe some other Nikons too. I don't know and I don't actually care.
But there is definitely no Pentax available which is able to communicate with other lenses than the Pentax-A lenses. Though other lenses are also somehow usable, some better and some others not.
From my point of view Nikon has done the better job.
If Pentax will come up with a FF digital SLR, then it will be interesting again for me whether they have done something about or not. Until further I don't bother any longer as I prefer to use my Sony FF DLSR instead, where at least all the M42 lenses are compatible the same way like on Pentax DX-DSLRs.
I have also no problem when you have a different conception or believe.
Have a nice day.


PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
t b_a writes
that I do have Pentax cameras and all lenses form their different production lines. The only MF lenses which are working as designed on digital Pentax are their SMC-A lenses. There is no doubt about that.
If any other MF lenses are being used then at least there is no communication at all between the lens and the body. Furthermore the old K-mount lenses will not meter correctly as the lens stays always fully open when mounted on camera. The only way to change this, is to "modify" the lens mechanically. However, as soon as you make this, the lens will not work correctly also on old Pentax film bodies as then only the stop down method (like M on the old M42 lenses with M/A switch) will be possible.

I'm not sure if this is really correct - On my old K100d I get good exposures using the PK lenses with manual metering - that is, 'stopped-down' using the control ring which surrounds the release button. On my K30, I get good exposures using the 'green button'. I'm happy to say this is less convenient than seems to be the case with the Nikon models mentioned (which I've never used) but there's no need to make any mechanical alterations to the lenses. I know you have to tell the camera the focal length if you want it in the EXIF data, but not doing so has no effect on operation.

Let me say that I hope I've not misunderstood what was written - as usual, I've no wish to get into an argument but I worry that less experienced forum members may be left with a false impression of how older lenses work on newer Pentax DSLRs.

And somebody mentioned Nikon Pronea - Hey! I had one of those and thought it was great, within the limits of the APS system Very Happy


PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Stephen,

Having studied my manual again and taken into consideration what you are stating here I have to admit that I now finally found the method with the ring around the aperture button. The trick is to hold the ring in that position manually for metering in M-mode only.
So you are right. Thanks a lot for that enlightenment!
Maybe Pentax digital cameras are way too complicated for me?
Fortunately I've ruined only 1 lens up to now (Takumar 135mm F2.5 Bayonet) and simply stopped using the other lenses on the K20D. Wink

At least for me this little controversial discussion was quite helpful and I might use my Pentax more often in future.... Smile

Nevertheless, the aperture setting is unfortunately not recorded in the exif. It's just the far better way to use the "stop-down" metering for non-Pentax-A K-mount lenses. Though I still have no advantage of using those lenses on Pentax compared to the usage on Ricoh or Sony. Sad


PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
At least both Pentax and Nikon have continued to support their classic lenses to a point that other manufacturers have not.
Being able to use the Nikon F mount and the Pentax K mount right up to the current DSLR versions is a big plus.
Well done Pentax and Nikon
OH
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