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need some help venturing into large format
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:39 am    Post subject: need some help venturing into large format Reply with quote

edited

Last edited by bernhardas on Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: need some help venturing into large format Reply with quote

That kickstarter project sounds interesting. Was thinking about opting in, but as I am quite lucky with my Jobo 2520 for 6 sheets of 4x5", I will skip that idea.

1) do not know to much about, as I am using a Tachihara, which has the same lens boards as the small Linhof or Toyo-View. There are frequently boards from chinese makers at pretty attractive prices available.
2) (will answer for the Linhof/Tachihara/Toyo-system, as this is the one, I know)
a) in a second
b) yes, you can by unscrewing a ring, you will need a tool for this
c) copal 0 is the same as the other 0 sizes. Older compur or Compound shutters have their own sizes.
d) Graflex Speed Graphic! Otherwise, you will have to find your own trick for that. Big Compur or Compound shutter added to the lens, or vice versa
3) don't know

So much or less from my side


Klaus


bernhardas wrote:
I have been thinking to venture into large format for a long time.
The major argument holding me back, was that I did not want to go down the route of a tray development darkroom as I do not really have a proper space for it.

Now this Kickstarter project will offer tank development like for 35mm and medium format:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1653453089/sp-445-compact-4x5-film-processing-system

I backed it and started my research for a 4x5 equipment.

There is a lot out there but I found that many sources are 10-15 years old. That is OK for descriptions fundamental description of cameras and lenses. However prices and availability have shifted considerably (by browsing ebay).

Also a couple of questions remain unsolved.

1) how do I know which lens boards fit which camera?
2) Lenses come in barrel, with shutter or on the lens board.
a) Can I easily change lens board myself? (I guess yes)
b) Can I easily change the shutter? (I guess no, but why not?)
c) Lens boards and shutters come in different sizes. Is a copal #0 only usable for copal? Or does any other #0 equally fit?
d) How can I use barrel lenses? Is there a shutter solution out there?
3) As long term member of this forum I will want to tinker and use different and strange lenses.
Is there any good description how to adapt strange lenses to 4x5 in the internet?
4) Weight and size do not matter for me, as I will not go trekking with it. Price does matter. But flexibility when it comes to lenses is most important. Which camera type/ or model offers the best availability of the necessary lensboards shutters, and allows with a separate shutter (2d) above) to use barrel lenses? (Or am I overthinking this and any camera will do?)


PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a special developing tank from Jobo for processing 6 4x5 sheets at once in quite little solutions. They have a reel for 6 4x5 sheets for the normal thank, too, and it is a cheaper.
See it here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOP-JOBO-Multitank-2-Planfilm-Set-2509-sheetfilm-set-DECKELWAHL-choice-of-lid-/172020372012?hash=item280d36922c:g:SoIAAOSwCQNWfahn
I have one and it works very well both with and without their rotating home developing machines. For slides and color negatives you'll need to get, later, a thermostated tank.
I've got a "CPE-2 lift" like this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jobo-CPE2-processor-with-lift-6-month-warranty-/281892198044?hash=item41a215969c:g:jIYAAOSwhkRWecs5
and it works very well for color slides and negatives.
The great advantage of the Jobo developing system is that you can add later, if needed, other facilities and they match the ones you already have (reels, paper developing tubes, thermostated developing tanks, etc).

To answe your questions:
1 - some (very few) lensboards can be used on more cameras (ex.Linhof-Wista -Toyo) but moast of them can only be used on the camera they are made for.
2 - some (very few) 4x5 cameras (Graflex Speed Graphic) have a focal plane shutter and the lens can be mounted on the lens board, without a shutter, but most cameras need lenses mounted in shutter and the shutter (with the lens) is mounted on the lens board. There are more standards for shutters (dependin on how big is the lens). The Copal shutters (European standard) has #00, #0, #1, and #3 dimensions. There is a #2 dimension too, but is very rarely used. There are American standards as well, but the Copal standard is now the universaly accepted one.
a - Usually yes.
b - Usually yes.
c - Copal and Compur are the same. The American standards are different.
d - The barrel lenses can be used with a shutter mounted in front or at the rear of the lens. With a Speed Graphic you don't need a shutter for them.
3 - Usually as described on point "d". To mount the shutter between the front and rear groups of the lens is possible (I did it for some lenses) but a bit more difficult (you'll need a lathe).
4 - As shutters are standardized and lens boards can be found quite easily you can adapt barrel lenses to any 4x5 camera. With a Speed Graphic, having the focal plane shutter, is easyer to adapt barrel lenses - you only mount them on the lens board, without shutter. But they are quite old cameras and the accuraty of the focal plane shutter is a problem with many of them.

I am a Linhof fan and I have 3 Linhof cameras. They are very well made, comparable with the Leica build quality, but they are not cheap. Probably a Speed Graphic is the best 4X5 camera to start with, if price matters.

Other things to consider are:
- Do you intend to use the camera hand held? Then you'll need a camera with a range finder (the Speed Graphic has one).
- You'll certainly want to use tilt-shift movements with your 4x5 camera. Some cameras have better movements than others and are easier to use.
- You'll need film holders for the 4X5 sheets, too. In addition to the normal film holders I'll recommend the Grafmatic film holders. They take 6 sheets of film at once. Very nice engineered pieces of gear.
See it here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Graflex-Grafmatic-45-Graphic-Cut-Film-Holder-w-6-Septums-690-/201485100077?hash=item2ee972a42d:g:dTIAAOSwHQ9WZOtQ

exaklaus wrote:
Older compur or Compound shutters have their own sizes.

Klaus is right, only the more recent Compur shutters have the same dimensions with Copal. The very old ones are different.

Another camera I'll recomand is the Horseman 6x9 camera. It is smaller and it has a 4X5 extender back - you can use it as a 4x5 sheet film camera as well.
You'll have a 6x9 small camera for normal use and a 4x5 camera when needed, all in a small package. But the back extenders are quite rare, you'll have to wait to find one.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the Kickstarter developer, it really can't enter into the equation since it's not available. But there are lots of options available to develop 4x5 film. Myself, I use a MOD54 (http://mod54.com/collections/mod54-processor-1/products/mod54-film-processor) in a Patterson System 4 tank.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edited

Last edited by bernhardas on Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:02 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As with all start-ups, one never knows truly when it will come to market..... if at all. Just don't bet the rent money on it.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edited

Last edited by bernhardas on Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:02 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SK Grimes do a very good job on mounting exotic lenses in shutters and they have a long experience but, AFAIK, they are not cheap at all.
I'll only send to them the most expensive and rare lenses I want to re-mount in shutters.
Anyway, it's a very good thing they still exist.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edited

Last edited by bernhardas on Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:03 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many questions, most of which have already been answered well.

http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/pratique/Les_obturateurs_centraux.html is the most complete list of shutters' dimensions that I'm aware of.

Using lenses in barrel. In general, unless the lens' cells are direct fits in a standard shutter adapting a lens in barrel to a shutter usually costs more than buying the equivalent lens in shutter. Adapters for hanging a lens in front of a shutter or hanging a shutter in front of a lens can be quite expensive, become more attractive when several lenses can use the same adapter. See http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf for a fuller discussion of using barrel lenses.

Lenses in barrel often have mounting flanges that can be used to attach them to lens boards. Once on boards they can be used with behind-the-lens shutters. See, e.g., http://www.packardshutter.com. Also educate yourself about the Sinar system. Sinar offers b-t-l shutters that are more flexible (more speeds, faster highest speed) than Packards. Sinar shutters can be adapted to other view cameras with large enough front standards but their native habitat is Sinar cameras.

If you can live with its limitations -- minimal movements, minimum/maximum extensions around 65 mm/300 mm -- a 4x5 Speed Graphic will let you use barrel lenses with the camera's focal plane shutter. If you can live with its limitations a 4x5 Speed Graphic can be a relatively inexpensive way to shoot 4x5.

Re cameras' backs. Nearly all modern view camera backs will accept all modern sheet film holders. Spring/bail backs will accept only insertion type roll holders, a Graflok/International back is needed for clip-on roll holders as sold by Graflex Inc. and successors, Horseman, Linhof (think Super Rollex), ...

Good luck, have fun,

Dan


PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: need some help venturing into large format Reply with quote

bernhardas wrote:
I have been thinking to venture into large format for a long time.
The major argument holding me back, was that I did not want to go down the route of a tray development darkroom as I do not really have a proper space for it.
...


So did you get started with large format by now?

Klaus


PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got the camera. Still waiting for some of the bits and pieces. most importantly the film holders and the development tank.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bernhardas wrote:
I just got the camera. Still waiting for some of the bits and pieces. most importantly the film holders and the development tank.


What happened, all your entries above are gone....??


PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just getting into this as well. I picked up a "no-name" wooden camera off eBay for 83 usd plus 30 shipping, seller claims bellows is good, we will see. It appears to be a 5 x 7. I'll wait to see it before going further. If the shutter works I will start with that. The local camera shop doesn't deal with 57 so I will have to send out for processing unless I go into that as well. Advice will be greatly appreciated.

Camera images from seller:






PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah if anybody knows about this camera please share.