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My position as administrator
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:40 am    Post subject: My position as administrator Reply with quote
I think it is opportune that I make my views public about the way I conceive my role of administrator in this forum.

One of the things I came to quickly hate in Internet forums, is moderation.

I took part to forums and news groups, where your messages have to be approved by someone else, before they have the right to appear and be visible.
I find this a monstrous aberration .

I always fought against that which I consider a rape of the human right of expression. I fought battles to unmoderate existing forums and create non moderated ones. I often lost, because like with all human things, people who have "the power" like to exercise it - over others.

Who am I? I am a libertarian. My ideology is that freedom is sacred, and its limits are the freedom of the other people only.
I do not believe in any limitation of freedom that is different from the above, I consider that an abuse.

When Attila asked me to administrate this forum, one of the reasons why I accepted (beyond my obvious G.A.S.), is that it was a great occasion to realize what I always dreamed about: a forum where a moderation exists to avoid that a moderation is applied. An "anti-moderation moderator", if you accept the paradox.
This is how I perceive my role here. As you know, I am not moderator here - others are - I am administrator. I am happy of the nominal difference.

I have recently been criticized (privately) being told "you should have censored/banned this or that because what he wrote means that..."
Well, just to make it clear: I will never do that. So don't even ask. I do not judge anyone by his intentions. Hundreds of years of history and thousands of thousands of men have died just to avoid the pest of the judgement of intentions.

The only case where I will consider to apply a restriction, is the case of personal harassment. When a member attacks another member continously and pretextually. Because this, is exactly a case of freedom that interferes with the freedom of someone else.

Concepts, ideas, thoughts, do not belong to the category of personal harassment, and do not represent an interference with the freedom of anyone. Therefore, do not ask me to censor or ban people for their ideas, because I never will.

On the contrary, I find that asking to censor or ban someone because of his ideas or thoughts, is an actual interference with the freedom of other members.

I expect that when discussions arise, the members of this group are mature enough to accept a civil confrontation, even on hard ideological terms, but always with the mutual personal respect, without invoking censorship when they read something that they don't like or approve.

I expect the members of this group to be able to understand that in the world there are different opinions and that nobody owns the Truth, provided that a univocal truth exists when human things are concerned (which is in my opinion highly disputable).

I know that this is a difficult challenge. It is much, much easier to conduct a group in the dictator's way. Like, setting a mood for everyone: "everyone who takes part to this group must be happy and post positive messages. Negative mood is not accepted" - do you think it's a joke? Think again, because it has happened, in another photography group very similar in subject to this one. One person was publicly reproached by the owner/moderator because his bitter messages, due to having lost his work and being unemployed, disturbed the gay serenity of the place...

Nice eh? Nice being moderators like that. Who cares if a friend is unemployed and suffers? He must not interfere with the happy smiles of the group.

Not just that. I was personally refused my money donation to that group, because the owner/moderator thought to have "perceived negative undertones in my recent messages".

As you can see, the frontiers of judgement of intentions can be always pushed forward, towards the unimaginable.
It would be to laugh about, if it wasn't so depressing, to think that people like that exist.

It is much easier to take a forum on the lead and censor messages, cut unpleasing parts, shut up people here and there - and finally arrive to the perfectly quiet and happy forum - where everyone is forced to think the same for the sake of not disturbing.

Do you like the above picture? Do you think that it's better to have a Duce who leads a forum dictatorially, as the price for being in a quiet reassuring place?

If yes, then I'm afraid this is not the forum for you - at least, not until I am the administrator.

Here, until I am administrator, nobody is forced to be happy, nobody is forced to be silent about things he would like to talk about or be lying about things he thinks are not true.

This also means that everyone on this forum is called to his responsibility more than in other typical forums.

Everyone is singularily responsible of what he writes and of the pictures he publishes.
This is always true, but it is even more true in this forum, because the administrator (me) refuses to keep the members on the lead.

If you like, you can call this forum an experiment with extreme democracy.
I mean the true democracy, not the democracy that your politicians call as such, which is a lie. This is the real democracy because it starts from the bottom: from everyone of us, individually. From our sense of responsibility and from our ability to relationate with the others. Individually.

So do not rely on the administrator like the daddy who comes in and decides which of the children must have the bigger ice cream.

This is a forum for adult people, where adult means of adult mind. If you have ideas and thoughts, it depends on you to defend them. Do not expect others or the administrator to do it. The candy man's gone, and daddy too. You are adults and responsible, stand on your own legs. Be men, not crying histerical children. I will only be the guarantee that everyone in the group is given the same basic rights of speech and expression. And as long as I am administrator here, everyone will. Everyone. No exceptions

This is "my way". If you don't like this way, we can have a poll, and if the majority of the people thinks that you need a dictatorial administration, who bans and censors at his will for the sake of being in eternal dreamland, I will simply give back my office in the hands of Attila. I can not be that kind of moderator, because it is against every fundamental principle I always believed in in my life.

Orio.
-

Last edited by Orio on Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:55 am; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you Orio to make it clear here everybody has right to tell his/her opinion without censorship.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think that a clarification was needed after the recent threads.

I can not be, and do not want to be, a man for all seasons. I will give back the office if the majority of people wants a different administrator.
I have my idea of what a free forum should be and I am trying to apply it. Others may wish for a different type of administrator, so it's important that I explain what is my vision. Also because I don't want to be mistaken as an administrator who "does not care". My very limited number of actions has a reason, and responds to a phylosophy. it is a choice, and it follows precise guidelines.

-


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
*Standing up, clapping* Thank you, thank you, oh Imperator! And now
I think I'll have the larger of the two ice creams... Laughing

Orio, I always thought you were a libertine, not a libertarian. Razz Wink

On a serious note, I'm glad you posted your philosophy.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Applause


patrickh


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio, thanks for your statement.
Best regards,
Jes.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd like to agree.

My philosophy as a moderator is very similar.
I try to "moderate" the threads if they go too far, i.e. if personal offence is applied or if a certain thread can mean any harm for the reputation of the whole board.

But since I cannot watch all threads all the time, I am happy to get messages if members think that something is not right. So please, if you fell abused or if you think that there is something is off kilter, please contact me and I will see what we can do.

This is the role of a moderator, as I define it. Wink

Would that be OK with you?


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK by me, Carsten. The problem is, I'd probably be the one they
would be complaining about... Laughing


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Look like a nice politic speech
Every politics promise true democracy that start from bottom
A moderator cannot be like another member, even if a minister go shopping in a supermarket, he will always be a minister.
If a moderator write something on the forum, it will not perceived the same as a simple member.
I vote for free speech for everybody except for the moderators, that is true democracy from the bottom.
Moderator should not take part to any ethic, ethnic or political debate, just follow (and moderate if needed) but not participate.
Lets see if my free speech will be perceived as personal harassment Wink


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
poilu wrote:
Look like a nice politic speech
Every politics promise true democracy that start from bottom
A moderator cannot be like another member, even if a minister go shopping in a supermarket, he will always be a minister.
If a moderator write something on the forum, it will not perceived the same as a simple member.
I vote for free speech for everybody except for the moderators, that is true democracy from the bottom.
Moderator should not take part to any ethic, ethnic or political debate, just follow (and moderate if needed) but not participate.
Lets see if my free speech will be perceived as personal harassment Wink


I don't promise direct democracy. I do it.

I have never censored you or banned you, even when what you were doing was just trolling with ethnical comments about Italians "who make false banknotes", "una faca una raca", and such things. On any typical forum, you would probably have been banned. Here you have not been touched, not even with a single moderation finger.

Do I need to give better proof of my conduct, than this?

-
P.S. Not allowing moderators to talk, this is not democracy, it's censorship.
Moderators have the same right of expression as everybody else.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
LucisPictor wrote:
I'd like to agree.
My philosophy as a moderator is very similar.
I try to "moderate" the threads if they go too far, i.e. if personal offence is applied or if a certain thread can mean any harm for the reputation of the whole board.
But since I cannot watch all threads all the time, I am happy to get messages if members think that something is not right. So please, if you fell abused or if you think that there is something is off kilter, please contact me and I will see what we can do.
This is the role of a moderator, as I define it. Wink
Would that be OK with you?


Carsten, you are moderator, you will act following your conscience. I can not and don't want to dictate you any guideline for your work.
Should I disagree with your decisions, we will talk about it without any hyerarchy position.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Katastrofo wrote:
OK by me, Carsten. The problem is, I'd probably be the one they
would be complaining about... Laughing


ehhh? I think you're the last one. At least if you will leave the larger ice-cream to me. Twisted Evil


To be serious: I'm glad that I don't have to decide wether to close a discussion or not.

Michael


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The idea of freedom from censorship is noble, but it's a difficult position to maintain to it's it's ultimate point. I suspect that even the most tolerant of us would expect pornographic to be removed for example. There will always be some limits to freedom of expression.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Richard_D wrote:
The idea of freedom from censorship is noble, but it's a difficult position to maintain to it's it's ultimate point. I suspect that even the most tolerant of us would expect -- to be removed for example. There will always be some limits to freedom of expression.


The way I see it, the limit is the personal harassment.
When the personal respect and politeness between group members are maintained, everything else, for me, falls into the realm of opinions - subjective, disputable, not censoreable.

Everyone is responsible of what he writes. If someone writes idiocies, then the other members will have a low opinion on him, will not listen to him, and may ultimately ignore him. This is going to be the best punishment. And the best thing is, it will be self-inflicted.

Censoring someone for his opinions immediately puts both the moderator and the other contender on the wrong side.

Having to hear some things that we dislike, is the price we have to pay for being able to say the things that we like, without anyone to decide if they are right or wrong.
Nobody says that this kind of democracy comes without a price.

But it's a useful training too. Having to read things that we usually don't like to hear, forces us all to an effort for being more self-critical and less self-assured of our own positions. And ultimately, to develop more self-control and self-conscience, because it all depends on us, not on a police force (the moderators) to solve the problems for us.
It serves to grow up more as citizens of the world.

Utopist? Maybe I am. I like to aim high. Even if I'll have to fall, the highest I aim, the higher I will fall.

-


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
Richard_D wrote:
The idea of freedom from censorship is noble, but it's a difficult position to maintain to it's it's ultimate point. I suspect that even the most tolerant of us would expect -- to be removed for example. There will always be some limits to freedom of expression.


The way I see it, the limit is the personal harassment.
When the personal respect and politeness between group members are maintained, everything else, for me, falls into the realm of opinions - subjective, disputable, not censoreable.

Everyone is responsible of what he writes. If someone writes idiocies, then the other members will have a low opinion on him, will not listen to him, and may ultimately ignore him. This is going to be the best punishment. And the best thing is, it will be self-inflicted.

Censoring someone for his opinions immediately puts both the moderator and the other contender on the wrong side.

Having to hear some things that we dislike, is the price we have to pay for being able to say the things that we like, without anyone to decide if they are right or wrong.
Nobody says that this kind of democracy comes without a price.

But it's a useful training too. Having to read things that we usually don't like to hear, forces us all to an effort for being more self-critical and less self-assured of our own positions. And ultimately, to develop more self-control and self-conscience, because it all depends on us, not on a police force (the moderators) to solve the problems for us.
It serves to grow up more as citizens of the world.

Utopist? Maybe I am. I like to aim high. Even if I'll have to fall, the highest I aim to, the higher I will fall.

-


Has my original post been censored? There's a word missing..


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What word Richard? I have not touched your post.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Richard, could you please explain? What word is missing? I would never cut any of your words, for God's sake.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I tried to send the word "Viagra" in a post and it automatically blanked
it out. I could show you the post...

Bill


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow it did it again! Vee AGG ruh!

Bill


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Katastrofo wrote:
I tried to send the word "--" in a post and it automatically blanked
it out. I could show you the post...

Bill


Please do. I have no idea of what this is.
Attila, is there any automatic censorship on words in the forum engine?


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Katastrofo wrote:
Wow it did it again! Vee AGG ruh!
Bill


If you refer to the anti-impotence pill, perhaps it was implemented as an anti-spam feature.

But I try to put that word in Richard's sentence and the sense escapes me... unles it was a different word.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, it contains two words what will be automatically replace to "--"

*porn*
*viagra*


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, Orio, the res-erection pill! Laughing


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ah OK with the P**N word Richard's sentence makes sense.

-


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes I was trying to say Po#*!graphy and I don't mean photography. Hopefully it makes my original post more sensical. The worst example of this idiotic electronic censorship was Great Tit on a bird forum (Parus Major) incase it gets blocked here...
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