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My Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.7/50
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:06 pm    Post subject: My Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.7/50 Reply with quote
Click here to see on Ebay

Ending Monday evening.
-


PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
First round not sold, I lowered both entry price and buy it now price.
Now I am really at the limit of acceptable, the BIN price would just refund me of the original price+shipping, lower than that I would lose money.

Hard period to sell, people has no money to spend. Mad


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
No ofense Orio but it seems to me that is the same BIN price as before.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Himself wrote:
No ofense Orio but it seems to me that is the same BIN price as before.


No Sorin, before BIN was 119, now is 115

Ok, not big change, but lens is cheap, would make no sense to lower more. If I can not sell it I will just keep it.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
the problem is conversion rate... Year back, this price was OK for US customers too, but now you can get f1.4 with some more interest. On the other side, the great western European market is becoming expensive for this side pond...


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Orio

Have you thought about why to use Italian language on ebay.com. I mean it would be the same if I wrote i Swedish or Danish.

I would never make a bit on a add like this, unless of course I know you Very Happy

I don´t want to be rude, but Italians, do not have the best reputation. Don´t know why myself.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
lahnet wrote:
I don´t want to be rude, but Italians, do not have the best reputation. Don´t know why myself.


Seller: orio3d (182 Feedbacks)
Feedback: 100% Positive

What a reputation...


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Flor27 wrote:
lahnet wrote:
I don´t want to be rude, but Italians, do not have the best reputation. Don´t know why myself.


Seller: orio3d (182 Feedbacks)
Feedback: 100% Positive

What a reputation...


You are absolutely correct. I am just pointing out why "maybe" there is a problem in the way the add is written.

It is away a good idea to think "What if I was the Buyer"

I would deal with Orio anytime.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
lahnet wrote:
Hi Orio
Have you thought about why to use Italian language on ebay.com. I mean it would be the same if I wrote i Swedish or Danish.
I would never make a bit on a add like this, unless of course I know you Very Happy
I don´t want to be rude, but Italians, do not have the best reputation. Don´t know why myself.


Well, firstly, the objects are published on ebay.it They are visible on ebay.com because:

1- I published the link here using Attila's tool which links to ebay.com
2- I set the auctions to be shipped worldwide.

Secondly, let me question your brilliant idea: how much time it will take to any ebay user with just the minimum acceptable intelligence quotient, after having read the ad in English, to find out that I have an Italian name, I am based in Italy, and I am shipping from Italy?

Thirdly, for the reputation of Italians I have to thank my friends the neapolitans and sicilians. But hopefully one day Northern Italy will succeed in obtaining the independence. I wish the same not only to ourselves but also to Catalans, Basques, and all other regions striving for independence and autodetermination, which is a right of peoples written on the charts of human rights.

Fourthly, about half of my sales comes from Italy, so Italian text is necessary. When foreign users want to buy from me, they just will, based on my feedback reputation. I just sold my Sigma 10-20 a few days ago to a Greek user, for 340 Euros.

_


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well Orio, if you are posting on ebay(dot)it of course the add have to in Italian.

BUT, If you are posting outside Italy you have to ask yourself how many potential customers you are loosing if you write in Italian language.

If you think that the average buyer looks (first impression) on anything else than your description and your 100% rating your are wrong. To write in any other language's only decrease potential buyers.

I make a living adjusting foreign advertises to the Nordic marked, one of my customer are United Colors of Benetton (only Italian customer). Not that it matters but my English is not good enough to write my exact thoughts.

This is not a brilliant idea just common sense, and I don´t really care what you do.

EDIT: I have lived in Palinuro just south of Napoli in almost a year, and I have never known friendlier people than Neapolitans and Sicilians


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lahnet wrote:
Well Orio, if you are posting on ebay(dot)it of course the add have to in Italian.

BUT, If you are posting outside Italy you have to ask yourself how many potential customers you are loosing if you write in Italian language.

If you think that the average buyer looks (first impression) on anything else than your description and your 100% rating your are wrong. To write in any other language's only decrease potential buyers.

I make a living adjusting foreign advertises to the Nordic marked, one of my customer are United Colors of Benetton (only Italian customer). Not that it matters but my English is not good enough to write my exact thoughts.

This is not a brilliant idea just common sense, and I don´t really care what you do.


I'm sorry but I am not getting your point anymore.
First you say I should not write in Italian because Italians have bad reputation.
To which I object that any Ebay user who is not totally deficient, will look for where the item is shipped from, if for nothing else, for understanding if he has to pay for customs or VAT.
The auction page reports in clear lettering:

- item location: Salsomaggiore Terme, Italy

- Orio3d, Member since Oct-17-03 in Italy

Screen grab of my auction:



Now, imagine there is a user who distrusts Italians.
He looks at my auction: English text only. Great.
He plans to bid. He checks for the item location and shipping options.
He sees that the item is located in Italy.
He checks the seller, and sees that he is registered in Ebay Italy.

And do you think that he will still bid on my item, if he distrusts Italians?

At this point I have to ask you: what segment of people are you examining, to draw your marketing conclusions? I think you are just talking without any factual base, really, because only a total idiot would buy an item from an Italian seller only because the text is in English, if he really distrusts Italians.
If he distrusts Italians, he will not buy from Italians, period, independently from what language the auction is written in.

And now we come to your second message, in which you completely change your reasoning.

Now, it's not a matter of distrusting Italians any more. It has become a matter of whether the text is in "any other language".

Which is not clear at all but trying to desume from the rest of your post, I would say you mean "any language other than English".

Well, then I have to invite you to re-read the ad text, the text is in English. And Italian.
If the problem is only to have an English text to read, the text is there.

So now to draw conclusions:

1- if the problem is that the text is in "any other language" than English (the thesis of your second message), then the problem is not existent, because I give a full description in English for English-language bidders to read.

2- if the problem is instead a problem of reputation of Italians (the thesis of your first message), then it would make no difference whatever language I write the ad with, because this will not change the fact that I am an user based in Italy and that the item will be shipped from Italy.

My suggestion is that you first decide which of your two opinions is the real/final/official opinion. Then you can read my related answer, and we can examine the various aspects if you like.
_


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You can sell anyway you what to Smile But,

I think you are missing the point.

You are an experienced eBay user and therefore you assume your potential buyers are the same - Wrong.
90% of the people looking on your add are looking in maybe 5 sek and no more.

Italian language are only an advantage when you sell in Italy, this has noting to do with Italians at all, but it may make someone to not read you add, because off that. We all have prejudice about other countrys and when you are selling you have to think about that.

When you sell on eBay.com it is a disadvantage. I would not write in Danish on eBay, nothing good would come from that.

You have to think about the signal you are sending.

Last edited by lahnet on Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Something I don't understand is that the auction filed by Orio is both in Italian and English....


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lahnet wrote:
You can sell anyway you what to Smile But,
I think you are missing the point.
You are an experienced eBay user and therefore you assume your potential buyers are the same - Wrong.
90% of the people looking on your add are looking in maybe 5 sek and no more.
Italian language are only an advantage when you sell in Italy, this has noting to do with Italians at all.
When you sell on eBay.com it is a disadvantage. I would not write in Danish on eBay, nothing good would come from that.
You have to think about the signal you are sending.


OK, let me try and see if I understand your new formulation.

Can we please make a reasoning point-by-point and make for each point a solid, clear assumption? One that does not change every message?

You start from basepoint that all Ebay users do not trust Italians, and would not buy from Italians, except when they know the seller personally, like you have clearly stated.

Can we please make this a solid, non-changing argument?

Ok I write it down in bold letters to make it solid:

1 - Ebay users do not trust Italian people and will not buy from Italian people, unless they happen to know the seller personally

Then your new formulation is that people will look 5 seconds to an auction and when they see it's written by a frigging Italian, they will go away immediately.

I personally object that people who is really interested to buy a lens, and not only browsing for fun, will not stop only 5 seconds on an auction of a lens they are really interested in. They will stay more and try to understand if the lens is good and the price is good.

But this will take us to a different territory, so now I stick with the first part of your premise and make it solid if you accept:

2 - people will open my auction for 5 seconds and will leave it immediately when they see from the language used that the seller is Italian

Now what I ask you to explain in a logically credible way, is the following:

Is it possible that a Ebay user who despise Italians, and never buys from Italians unless knowing one personally, shall change is mind and buy from an Italian seller only because the English-only text did not repell him immediately from the auction? Is it possible that this buyer shall buy my item, only because the English text has kept him on the page for more than 5 seconds, and regardless that the seller is a cheating Italian who lives in cheating Italy?

Please prove me with logical reasoning that the above contradiction is possible.
_

Last edited by Orio on Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:03 pm; edited 3 times in total


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nothing wrong with the ad, I'm sure sooner or later it will sell. Price is good. I would buy it if I had the money and it could be mounted to pentax.

Last edited by Riku on Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Flor27 wrote:
Something I don't understand is that the auction filed by Orio is both in Italian and English....


That is one of my objections also.
But the problem is that he changed his reasoning.
In his first post, the objection was an ethnical reason (other people don't trust Italians)
In his second post, he changed his motivation.
I asked him to motivate this contradiction, he replied that it's a matter of being repelled by Italians in the first 5 seconds of the auction.
I have made another post making solid points of his statement, trying to nail down his different theories into one, and I asked him to reply to a precise question I make to him, based on the solid arguments as they surface form his messages.
I think there is a patent contradiction in his theory. A person who is repelled by Italians does not change his mind only because the English text of an auction makes him stay on the auction page for more than 5 seconds.
This is my opinion.
Now let's see how he motivates his.
_


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You are way ahead.

Before a potential buyer reads your add, he/she is browsing a lot of adds. You have to ask yourself what you can do to keep them and make them read your sales informations. It you believe that writing in 2 different languages are helping please continue.

It seems like you are offended by my "don´t trust Italians" but maybe I am wrong about that, because when I look a your own posting you have written more that once not to trust (south) Italians.

I do not have a "Italian" problem - I have lived in Italy and will always look back feeling happy about that. But of course that was in the south Very Happy


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lahnet wrote:
You are way ahead.

Before a potential buyer reads your add, he/she is browsing a lot of adds. You have to ask yourself what you can do to keep them and make them read your sales informations. It you believe that writing in 2 different languages are helping please continue.
It seems like you are offended by my "don´t trust Italians" but maybe I am wrong about that, because when I look a your own posting you have written more that once not to trust (south) Italians.
I do not have a "Italian" problem - I have lived in Italy and will always look back feeling happy about that. But of course that was in the south Very Happy


I am not offended, although I perceive the obvious provocatory intent of your postings.
But unluckily for you, I am a person who is able to reason coldly.
You are still not answering my question.
How your statement that "people don't trust Italians" can be combined with your reasoning of the double language ad?

Please motivate that.
So far you have only walked around the point without hitting it.

_


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Please motivate that.
So far you have only walked around the point without hitting it.

Sorry- but I can not understand it for you.

For the last time:
1/You need to keep visitor, on your add for as long as possible. Agree?
2/Does two languages help doing that? I do not think so. (on eBay.com)
3/Does Italian languages make some to leave your add without reading?
4/Could it be after reading the same people became so interested that they would buy even after finding out the item are located in Italy?

I do not think you are aware about the most fundamental selling/adding principals. And that was my point.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lahnet wrote:
Please motivate that.
So far you have only walked around the point without hitting it.

Sorry- but I can not understand it for you.

For the last time:
1/You need to keep visitor, on your add for as long as possible. Agree?
2/Does two languages help doing that? I do not think so. (on eBay.com)
3/Does Italian languages make some to leave your add without reading?
4/Could it be after reading the same people became so interested that they would buy even after finding out the item are located in Italy?

I do not think you are aware about the most fundamental selling/adding principals. And that was my point.


You can not understand it for me, because it is impossible to understand. And the reason it is impossible to understand, is because it's contradictory.

In your first message, you based all your reasoning on the assumption that no foreign Ebayer will trust an Italian seller that is not known personally.

None of these four points you add now, does explain your original reasoning.

You still have to explain why a person with an ethnical despise of Italians should decide to buy from an Italian seller only because the ad is written in English only.

It is about 5 messages that I am asking you to give an answer to this.

You still have not, it is clear now that you are unable to.

Your contradiction is still as unresolved as before.

P.S. Don't hope to win a logical discussion with me only escaping the points and giving rhetorical answers. I had my best votes in Philosophy at High School. And I can't remember having lost any logical discussion to any of my friends in the Philosophy classes Wink
I will untiredly come back to the main point until you either explain your contradiction or admit it's unresolvable.

_


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:

You still have to explain why a person with an ethnical despise of Italians should decide to buy from an Italian seller only because the ad is written in English only.


I try to explain for him Razz

That kind of buyer could stop reading if he sees italian language. But if it's only in english it's easier to read and he might decide to read anyway with no intention of buying. Then he finds out that the offer is just too good to pass. Then he would look at your feedback and see that you can be trusted.

It might be a good idea to separate the english and italian text and put english first. But Italy is not a small market either and you might lose italian customers Confused I don't know.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lahnet wrote:
Hi Orio

Have you thought about why to use Italian language on ebay.com. I mean it would be the same if I wrote i Swedish or Danish.
I would never make a bit on a add like this, unless of course I know you Very Happy
I don´t want to be rude, but Italians, do not have the best reputation. Don´t know why myself.

I am quoting myself, never done that before Very Happy

Orio wrote:
In your first message, you based all your reasoning on the assumption that no foreign Ebayer will trust an Italian seller that is not known personally.

Wrong again Rolling Eyes

I write that I would not buy from a seller in Italy that I did not know. I assume that there are others like me.

I quote yourself:
Orio wrote:
Thirdly, for the reputation of Italians I have to thank my friends the neapolitans and sicilians

You agree that potential customers may have a problem dealing with Italians. And please understand that different between north and south of Itay does not meen anything outside Italia.

lahnet wrote:
1/You need to keep visitor, on your add for as long as possible. Agree?
2/Does two languages help doing that? I do not think so. (on eBay.com)
3/Does Italian languages make some to leave your add without reading?
4/Could it be after reading the same people became so interested that they would buy even after finding out the item are located in Italy?

Agree?

And thank you for keeping a nice tone beside my poor English. I kind of enjoy writing to you (strange?).


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riku wrote:
Orio wrote:

You still have to explain why a person with an ethnical despise of Italians should decide to buy from an Italian seller only because the ad is written in English only.


I try to explain for him Razz

That kind of buyer could stop reading if he sees italian language. But if it's only in english it's easier to read and he might decide to read anyway with no intention of buying. Then he finds out that the offer is just too good to pass. Then he would look at your feedback and see that you can be trusted.

It might be a good idea to separate the english and italian text and put english first. But Italy is not a small market either and you might lose italian customers Confused I don't know.


Very Happy


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riku wrote:
It might be a good idea to separate the english and italian text and put english first. But Italy is not a small market either and you might lose italian customers Confused I don't know.

Well, a solution could be to put each text in one column of a table...


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riku wrote:

I try to explain for him Razz


Thanks Riku Very Happy

Quote:
That kind of buyer could stop reading if he sees italian language. But if it's only in english it's easier to read and he might decide to read anyway with no intention of buying. Then he finds out that the offer is just too good to pass. Then he would look at your feedback and see that you can be trusted.


Hm... the logical consequence of your points is acceptable on both theoretical side and also on practical side if the hypotethical person we are talking about had only a generic diffidence towards Italian, not very radicated, not a real prejudice.
However, we don't have to forget about Lahnet's premise. He posed the issue on very strong terms.
He said that no foreigner would buy from an Italian seller unless he knew him personally
These are HIS words.
Now, a convinction so strong, that is defined as possibly overcome only by the direct, personal knowledge of the seller, can not just be assimilated to a generic diffident attitude. It is a very strong convincement, and it's simply not realistic that such a person could change his mind only because the English text makes him stay on the auction more than 5 seconds.

Quote:
It might be a good idea to separate the english and italian text and put english first.


That is an entirely different aspect and I may agree with that, although it is my opinion that this is only a secondary issue. I remain convinced that if somebody is really interested into an item, he will read the description whatever way it is laid out. Heck, having to use an online translator has never stopped me from reading German-only descriptions of lenses that I was really interested in.

_

Last edited by Orio on Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:04 pm; edited 3 times in total
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