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eeyore_nl
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 837 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:10 am Post subject: Monochrome sensor; very interesting outlook |
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eeyore_nl wrote:
No cameras for sale there yet, but the direction certainly looks promising to me:
http://www.maxmax.com/b&w_conversion.htm
I think I'm not alone in wishing for a B&W optimized, and affordable, digital sensor. _________________ Fujifilm X-Pro2 / Fujifilm X-T1 / some Sonnar & Takumar lenses |
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Esox lucius
Joined: 26 Aug 2008 Posts: 2441 Location: Helsinki, Finland
Expire: 2011-11-18
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Monochrome sensor; very interesting outlook |
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Esox lucius wrote:
eeyore_nl wrote: |
I think I'm not alone in wishing for a B&W optimized, and affordable, digital sensor. |
Yes, I agree! I expect we are not the only two persons on the planet either _________________ Vilhelm
Nikon DSLR: D4, D800, Nikon D3, D70
Nikon SLR: Nikon F100, Nikon FM2n
Nikkor MF: 20/2.8 Ai-S, 24/2 Ai-S, 24/2.8 Ai-S, 28/2 Ai-S, 28/2.8 Ai-S, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 Ai-S, 45/2.8 GN, 50/1.2 Ai, 50/1.2 Ai-S, 50/1.4 Ai, 50/1.4 Ai-S, 50/1.8 AI-S "long", 50/1.8 AI-S "short", 55/1.2 Ai, 85/1.4 Ai-S, 85/1.8H, 105/2.5 Ai, 135/2.8Q, 135/3.5 Ai, 180/2.8 Ai-S ED
Nikkor AF/AF-S FX: 14-24/2.8G, 16/2.8D Fisheye, 16-35/4G VR, 17-35/2.8D, 24/1.4G, 24/3.5D PC-E, 24/2.8D, 24-70/2.8G, 28/1.4D, 28/1.8G, 35/1.4G, 35/2D, 50/1.4D, 50/1.4G, 50/1.8G, 60/2.8 Micro, 60/2.8G Micro, 70-200/2.8G VR, 70-200/2.8G VR II, 80-400/4.5-5.6D VR, 85/1.4G, 85/2.8D PC-E Micro, 105/2D DC, 105/2.8G VR Micro, 135/2D DC, 200/2G VR, 200-400/4G VR, 300/2.8G VR, 300/4D ED, 400/2.8G VR, 800/5.6E VR
Nikkor AF/AF-S DX: 10.5/2.8G Fisheye, 12-24/4G, 18-70/3.5-4.5G
Topcor: Auto-Topcor 58/1.4,
Voigtländer SL: 40/2 Ultron, 58/1.4 Nokton, 75/2.5 Color-Heliar, 90/3.5 APO-Lanthar, 125/2.5 APO-Lanthar, 180/4 APO-Lanthar
Zeiss ZF: Planar T* 85/1.4 ZF
M42 SLR: Voigtländer Bessaflex TM
M42: Flektogon 20/4, Flektogon 35/2.4, Tessar 50/2.8 T, Super-Takumar 55/1.8, Biotar 58/2 T, Pentacon 135/2.8, Sonnar 135/3.5
Medium format: several Zeiss Super Ikonta 532/16 Opton-Tessar 80mm f/2.8, Zeiss Ikonta 524/16 Opton-Tessar 75mm f/3.5
Leica: R7, M4, Super-Angulon-R 4/21, Elmarit-R 2.8/28, Summicron-R 2/35, Summicron-M 2/35, Summicron-M 2/50, Elmarit-R 2,8/180 |
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larsr
Joined: 25 Jun 2009 Posts: 272 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: |
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larsr wrote:
Thanks for the link! Very interesting to read - a bw sensor -equipped DSLR would indeed be on my wantlist too :) _________________ Lars
Bodies:
DSLR: Nikon D200
SLR: Nikon FA, Pentax Spotmatic SPII, Zeiss Ikon Icarex 35TM
35mm: Voigtl�nder Vitoret
Nikkor MF
24/2.8K AI'd, 28/2.8 AIS, 35/2 AIS, 50/1.4 AIS, 50/1.8 AIS, 50/2 AI, 55/2.8 Micro, 35-70/3.5 AIS, 85/1.8K AI'd, 100/2.8 Series E, 105/2.5 AI, 105/2.5 AIS, 135/3.5 AI, Nikkor 180/2.8 ED AIS, 200/4-Q AI'd, 300/4.5-H AI'd
M42
Misc: Vivitar 28/2.5, Chinon 28/2.8, Cosina Auto Cosinon 50/1.8, Revue Auto Revuenon 50/1.8, Mamiya 50/2, Auto Flex 55/1.7, Cosina Cosinon 135/2.8 MC, Vivitar 135/2.8, Petri 200/3.5 CC Auto
Zeiss: Carl Zeiss (Ikon) Tessar 50/2.8, CZJ Tessar 50/2.8, CZJ Pancolar Electric 50/1.8 MC, CZJ Biotar 58/2 T, CZJ Sonnar MC S 135/3.5
Asahi-Pentax: SMC-Takumar 55/1.8, Super-Takumar 105/2.8, SMC-Takumar 135/3.5
USSR: Mir-1 37/2.8 (1958 GP), Helios 44-2 58/2
Pentacon/Meyer: Pentacon 29/2.8 MC, Pentacon 50/1.8 MC Electric, Meyer G�rlitz Oreston 50/1.8, Meyer G�rlitz Orestor 135/2.8, Pentacon 200/4
Nikkor AF
50/1.8 D, 60/2.8 Micro, 55-200/4-5.6 G VR, 70-300/4-5.6 ED, 18-70/3.5-4.5 G
Wantlist
Nikkor 105/1.8, Nikkor 135/2
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kansalliskala
Joined: 19 Jul 2007 Posts: 5027 Location: Southern Finland countryside
Expire: 2016-12-30
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:03 am Post subject: |
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kansalliskala wrote:
Kodak was the forerunner of everything digital, shame they couldn't survive in the competition.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/kodak-760m.shtml _________________ MF: Kodak DCS SLR/c; Samsung NX10; OM-10; Canon T50
Zuiko 28/3.5, Distagon 35/2.8; Yashica ML 50/2;
Zuiko 50/1.4; S-M-C 120/2.8; Zuiko 135/3.5; 200/5;
Tamron AD1 135/2.8, Soligor 180/3.5; Tamron AD1 300/5.6
Tamron zooms: 01A, Z-210
Yashicaflex C; Київ 4 + Юпитер 8, 11; Polaroid 100; Olympus XA; Yashica T3
Museum stuff: Certo-Phot; Tele-Edixon 135; Polaris 90-190; Asahi Bellows; Ixus IIs
Projects: Agfa Isolette III (no shutter), Canon AE-1D (no sensor),
Nikon D80 (dead), The "Peace Camera"
AF: Canon, Tokina, Sigma Video: JVC GZ-MG275E |
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eeyore_nl
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 837 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:17 am Post subject: |
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eeyore_nl wrote:
Yes, I know, and there is a monochrome digital back as well, but that's not exactly affordable. _________________ Fujifilm X-Pro2 / Fujifilm X-T1 / some Sonnar & Takumar lenses |
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Anu
Joined: 14 Apr 2009 Posts: 879
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Monochrome sensor; very interesting outlook |
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Anu wrote:
eeyore_nl wrote: |
No cameras for sale there yet, but the direction certainly looks promising to me:
http://www.maxmax.com/b&w_conversion.htm
I think I'm not alone in wishing for a B&W optimized, and affordable, digital sensor. |
Too bad they remove the microlenses - this is a big loss of light gathering ability with CMOS sensors. Another issue is the introduction of aliasing into images.
Their comparison was also not quite proper: if a sensor has AA filter, the captured image is supposed to be sharpened in software . Comparing unsharpened images from AAless and AAfull (I love creating new words ) sensors is not right.
I must also mention, that I just quickly browsed the link, so anything I wrote above may be just nonsense. |
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martinsmith99
Joined: 31 Aug 2008 Posts: 6943 Location: S Glos, UK
Expire: 2013-11-18
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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martinsmith99 wrote:
Although this sounds good and I prefer B&W to colour, I do like the flexibility of a colour DSLR. I prefer to use RAW converter to get the filter effects that like. _________________ Casual attendance these days |
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rbelyell
Joined: 13 Oct 2009 Posts: 4269 Location: somewhere in the mountains of central NY
Expire: 2014-01-31
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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rbelyell wrote:
i think itd be great to have a b&w camera if indeed the result is sharper images/better IQ than achievable through converting color pix. i really dislike wanting to shoot b&w, but seeing the scene through the vf in color; and then first seeing the pic in pp in color. believe it or not, many times i shoot b&w in jpeg just so i dont have to look at the scene in color! one of the reasons i have been wanting an ep1 is because with the liveview you see what you want to shoot! _________________ Epson RD1 + Elmarit 21/2.8; Summarit 50/1.5; Summarit 75/2.5; Elmar-c 90/4; Sankyo Komura 135/2.8, Hektor 135/4.5; Braun Paxina 29 6x6; Photax Boyer Paris; Holga 120 Pano
GREAT STUFF FOR SALE:
Contax T
Hasselblad XPan + 45/4, 90/4
Kodak Retina Reflex IV + full set of Schneider Krueznach lenses
Mercury 2 half frame 35mm
Kodak Pro slr/n
Fuji GM670+100/3.5+65/8!
Praktisix 6x6 medium format + ZeissBiometar 120/2.8
Bessa T 101 Anniversary Edition in Navy Blue
Mamiya Six Folder with Zuiko 75/3.5
Adaptall: Tamron SP 28-85 macro
Cameras: Canon IX
PM for more complete descriptions/pix. All in great shape!
_________________________
'buy me a drink, sing me a song,
take me as i come 'cause i can't stay long' |
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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1416 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Monochrome sensor; very interesting outlook |
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Arkku wrote:
Anu wrote: |
Their comparison was also not quite proper |
Also, they have the "red", "green", and "blue" channels at different levels, probably as the result of processing the image in the usual manner (either in-camera or through a typical raw workflow)… The processing of the sensor data should be done in all stages as a monochrome image with a camera like this, not split into channels with any knowledge of the sensor's old CFA.
Still, an interesting idea, perhaps the knowledge of these modifications will progress once more and more “hackers” begin to have several old DSLRs sitting unused. =) |
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
Well, I would not buy a b&w DSLR, but what I really find interesting is a compact or RF type of cam with such a b&w sensor.
Something like a b&w Lumix GF-1 and the 1.7/40, but with a rangefinder and immediate shutter button reaction. And something like Canon Picture Styles.
A perfect cam for street shots. _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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ZoneV
Joined: 09 Nov 2009 Posts: 1633 Location: Germany
Expire: 2011-12-02
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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ZoneV wrote:
I like the idea with the conversion of a normal DSLR into a monochrome DSLR. For some foregoing experiments I have some simple digital cameras bougth last year.
Now I learn, that others had the same idea and have first prototypes :-/
But it is some relief for me, that this modification seems complicated.
At work I have the pleasure to work with both color and monochrome industrial cameras up to 24x36 imager size (Kodak), but I have to admit I did´t make comparisons up to now.
I would like to have a special monochrome DSLR, I also have my special camera with excangable filtersystem _________________ Camera modification, repair and DIY - some links to look through: http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/index-en.html
I AM A LENS NERD!
Epis, Elmaron, Emerald, Ernostar, Helioplan and Heidosmat.
Epiotar, Kameraobjektiv, Anastigmat, Epis, Meganast, Magnagon, Quinar, Culmigon, Novotrinast, Novflexar, Colorplan, Sekor, Kinon, Talon, Telemegor, Xenon, Xenar, Ultra, Ultra Star. Tessar, Janar, Visionar, Kiptar, Kipronar and Rotelar.
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eeyore_nl
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 837 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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eeyore_nl wrote:
LucisPictor wrote: |
Something like a b&w Lumix GF-1 and the 1.7/40, but with a rangefinder and immediate shutter button reaction. |
Yes, I would buy that, if the price was within my budget. No need for picture styles either, just RAW output. _________________ Fujifilm X-Pro2 / Fujifilm X-T1 / some Sonnar & Takumar lenses |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
I have already my B&W sensor, it is call film, I can develop it in ways that will never be possible with a computer, and I can print it with my 250 Eur enlarger with results that no computer print has matched yet... _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16497 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Well, if anyone is interested in such a solution, I know an industrial company which does sensor conversions like this, also for "normal camera" sensors here in Germany. Not cheap but affordable for the ambitioned amateur. _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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lahnet
Joined: 10 Apr 2007 Posts: 1164 Location: Denmark
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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lahnet wrote:
I don´t get it
I find it far better just shooting color. This is the only way to achieve full control making the B&W image you like.
But hey, I might be missing the point. _________________ Henrik
Lahnet-Foto
My FLICKR
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57840 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2021-11-18
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
Orio wrote: |
I have already my B&W sensor, it is call film, I can develop it in ways that will never be possible with a computer, and I can print it with my 250 Eur enlarger with results that no computer print has matched yet... |
+100 _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57840 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2021-11-18
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
lahnet wrote: |
I don´t get it
I find it far better just shooting color. This is the only way to achieve full control making the B&W image you like.
But hey, I might be missing the point. |
+1 _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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ZoneV
Joined: 09 Nov 2009 Posts: 1633 Location: Germany
Expire: 2011-12-02
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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ZoneV wrote:
lahnet wrote: |
..
I find it far better just shooting color. This is the only way to achieve full control making the B&W image you like.
.. |
If you want to use virtual color filters in photoshop, then a color sensor will be best for you.
But with a pure monochrome sensor you get a little more light sensitivity. And you get the posibillity to use IR (ok, with a modified camera without IR-Cut you could get that too).
http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/business/ISS/datasheet/interline/KAI-16000LongSpec.pdf
With a monochrome camera you get rid of the step of bayer filtering the image on the sensor and the debayering in the camera hardware or RAW software. These steps could cause problems, lets think about small details with its colors changing. The resolution of the image is better (depends of the debayering algorithm).
Without the bayer pattern a sensor has a behavior much more like monochrome film. _________________ Camera modification, repair and DIY - some links to look through: http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/index-en.html
I AM A LENS NERD!
Epis, Elmaron, Emerald, Ernostar, Helioplan and Heidosmat.
Epiotar, Kameraobjektiv, Anastigmat, Epis, Meganast, Magnagon, Quinar, Culmigon, Novotrinast, Novflexar, Colorplan, Sekor, Kinon, Talon, Telemegor, Xenon, Xenar, Ultra, Ultra Star. Tessar, Janar, Visionar, Kiptar, Kipronar and Rotelar.
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rbelyell
Joined: 13 Oct 2009 Posts: 4269 Location: somewhere in the mountains of central NY
Expire: 2014-01-31
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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rbelyell wrote:
yeah, i could definitely see that would be true; the directest is often the bestest. i would be very intd in this type of camera....one of the nice things about my newly acquired ep1 is that with live view you can actually see the scene in b&w (as opposed to trying to visualize a color scene in b&w), so you can make adjustments before snapping. _________________ Epson RD1 + Elmarit 21/2.8; Summarit 50/1.5; Summarit 75/2.5; Elmar-c 90/4; Sankyo Komura 135/2.8, Hektor 135/4.5; Braun Paxina 29 6x6; Photax Boyer Paris; Holga 120 Pano
GREAT STUFF FOR SALE:
Contax T
Hasselblad XPan + 45/4, 90/4
Kodak Retina Reflex IV + full set of Schneider Krueznach lenses
Mercury 2 half frame 35mm
Kodak Pro slr/n
Fuji GM670+100/3.5+65/8!
Praktisix 6x6 medium format + ZeissBiometar 120/2.8
Bessa T 101 Anniversary Edition in Navy Blue
Mamiya Six Folder with Zuiko 75/3.5
Adaptall: Tamron SP 28-85 macro
Cameras: Canon IX
PM for more complete descriptions/pix. All in great shape!
_________________________
'buy me a drink, sing me a song,
take me as i come 'cause i can't stay long' |
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supahmario
Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Posts: 615 Location: Berlin, Germany
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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supahmario wrote:
kds315* wrote: |
Well, if anyone is interested in such a solution, I know an industrial company which does sensor conversions like this, also for "normal camera" sensors here in Germany. Not cheap but affordable for the ambitioned amateur. |
let us know some more about it. who is it? and what are they doing? _________________ EOS 5D, EOS 30
Leica-R: Summicron 2/50
QBM: Distagon 2.8/35
PK: Tokina 3.5/17, Porst 1.2/55
M42: S-M-C Takumar 3.5/24, S-M-C Takumar 1.8/55, CZJ MC Sonnar 3.5/135, Jupiter 21M 4/200
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RioRico
Joined: 12 Mar 2010 Posts: 1120 Location: California or Guatemala or somewhere
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Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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RioRico wrote:
lahnet wrote: |
I don´t get it I find it far better just shooting color. This is the only way to achieve full control making the B&W image you like. |
The point is resolution, and thus speed. With a color sensor, each usable pixel is essentially a statistical averaging of the 1R+1B+2G elements. So a 20mpx color sensor really only delivers 5-10mpx points, depending on light color. Increasing ISO requires amplifying the output of each pix.element, and those (relatively) fuzzy points bleed over to each other, introducing noise.
Without the Bayer filter, without the fuzziness, you would actually get a REAL 20mpx, about 2-4x better than in color. And adjacent pix.elements would be have more similar output levels than the fuzzy 4-by's, so bleed-over noise would diminish. What had been an ISO 100, supposedly 20mpx sensor now becomes an ISO 35 (or so) effectively 50-60mpx sensor. And that ISO can be boosted to higher levels with less noise. Ooh, grainless digital Panatomic-X!! Pushable to ASA-9600!!
One advantage of color dSLRs is (probably) filtration -- we can make the B&W image look as though it was shot through red, green, blue, yellow, orange etc filters. I don't know if a monochrome sensor can be jiggered to simulate filtration, or if you'd have to actually put a filter in front of the lens. But pull the hot-filter, and good IR shooting should be possible. _________________ Too many film+digi cams+lenses, oh my -- Pentax K20D, K-1000, M42s, more
The simple truth is this: There are no neutral photographs. --F-Stop Fitzgerald |
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rbelyell
Joined: 13 Oct 2009 Posts: 4269 Location: somewhere in the mountains of central NY
Expire: 2014-01-31
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Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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rbelyell wrote:
good points RR; didnt realize that math. sounds wierdly similar to the foveon story, no? _________________ Epson RD1 + Elmarit 21/2.8; Summarit 50/1.5; Summarit 75/2.5; Elmar-c 90/4; Sankyo Komura 135/2.8, Hektor 135/4.5; Braun Paxina 29 6x6; Photax Boyer Paris; Holga 120 Pano
GREAT STUFF FOR SALE:
Contax T
Hasselblad XPan + 45/4, 90/4
Kodak Retina Reflex IV + full set of Schneider Krueznach lenses
Mercury 2 half frame 35mm
Kodak Pro slr/n
Fuji GM670+100/3.5+65/8!
Praktisix 6x6 medium format + ZeissBiometar 120/2.8
Bessa T 101 Anniversary Edition in Navy Blue
Mamiya Six Folder with Zuiko 75/3.5
Adaptall: Tamron SP 28-85 macro
Cameras: Canon IX
PM for more complete descriptions/pix. All in great shape!
_________________________
'buy me a drink, sing me a song,
take me as i come 'cause i can't stay long' |
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RioRico
Joined: 12 Mar 2010 Posts: 1120 Location: California or Guatemala or somewhere
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Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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RioRico wrote:
Yeah Reb, some similarity to Foveon, but with simpler construction. And a monochrome sensor wouldn't be subject to the CA reported on Foveon.
I may have been slightly wrong about ISO -- let's think about a (non-Foveon) sensor, two versions, S(c) is standard color with Bayer screen, S(m) is the monochrome variant without that screen. With the chip and support electronics otherwise the same, S(m) would have greater sensitivity than S(c) due to not throwing away 1/2 to 3/4 of the light received. So, all else being equal, if the base level of S(c) is ISO 100, then S(m) is more like ISO 250-300 -- and still has 50-60mpx resolution!
I'm not familiar enough with post-sensor signal processing, how naked sensor output is translated to an ISO standard, to know if it's feasible to drop the processed output (what goes into a RAW file) to a lower level. Would a reduced signal be subject to low-voltage noise? I recall one digicam maker claiming a base ISO of 80, but I don't know if that's true or significant.
I bring up this low-ISO stuff because 1) with film, I often used ASA 8-32 emulsions (grainless!!) and 2) I dislike the hassle of shooting wide ranges of exposures. Sure, I could get welder's glass cut for filters, ND 1000 or thereabouts, so I could shoot 10-20 minute exposures at f/2. Why? To isolate a stationary subject, render all extraneous movement invisible. Why can't camera makers let me go low and slow? (gripe grumble whine)
Oh well. On the other end, as I said before, the monochrome S(m) sensor's output could be amplified more before noticeable noise appears. Again, with all else being equal, we could establish a S(m) base of ISO 200. At ISO 600, S(m) noise would be roughly equivalent to S(c) at ISO 100, its base. The noise from S(c) at ISO 3200 wouldn't appear from S(m) until maybe ISO 20,000!! And S(m) still has 50-60mpx resolution, so for same-size displays (print or screen) that S(m) noise would look like S(c) noise around ISO 1200. Yeah, an 8x-10x performance gain!!
[/me breathes hard, sweats slightly, feels faint with excitement] _________________ Too many film+digi cams+lenses, oh my -- Pentax K20D, K-1000, M42s, more
The simple truth is this: There are no neutral photographs. --F-Stop Fitzgerald |
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Anu
Joined: 14 Apr 2009 Posts: 879
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Anu wrote:
RioRico wrote: |
The point is resolution, and thus speed. With a color sensor, each usable pixel is essentially a statistical averaging of the 1R+1B+2G elements. So a 20mpx color sensor really only delivers 5-10mpx points, depending on light color. Increasing ISO requires amplifying the output of each pix.element, and those (relatively) fuzzy points bleed over to each other, introducing noise.
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The actualy resolution of a bayer-sensor is highly dependant on the algorithm used to create the image out of the raw-file. Only the absolutely worst possible converters do something as simple as you describe - in real world products all the conversion software I am aware of do quite a bit more clever job. That 5-10mpx claim is just incorrect. Even if we simply throw away blue and red for luminance information, we'll get 10 million greyscale pixels.
I don't reallly understand your fuzzy-point ISO-noise statement.
(I have an old and worn out brain with rather limited usability nowdays ).
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Without the Bayer filter, without the fuzziness, you would actually get a REAL 20mpx, about 2-4x better than in color.
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These numbers are way off.
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levels with less noise. Ooh, grainless digital Panatomic-X!! Pushable to ASA-9600!!
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The big problem with pushing to high ISOs is banding noise, fixed pattern noise. Without such problem one could push even a relatively small bayer-sensor to ISO 100.000 and have rather nice greyscale image.
Trying to get noise free images (without processing) at any ISO is just a dream for any technology as light itself produces noisy image.
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the lens. But pull the hot-filter, and good IR shooting should be possible. |
Canon used to sell a modified 20D without the IR filter. Mayby someday the sensor technology will be such that IR (and UV) wavelenghts are just separated by the sensor, instead of having to block them before the sensor. |
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Anu
Joined: 14 Apr 2009 Posts: 879
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Anu wrote:
RioRico wrote: |
I may have been slightly wrong about ISO -- let's think about a (non-Foveon) sensor, two versions, S(c) is standard color with Bayer screen, S(m) is the monochrome variant without that screen. With the chip and support electronics otherwise the same, S(m) would have greater sensitivity than S(c) due to not throwing away 1/2 to 3/4 of the light received. So, all else being equal, if the base level of S(c) is ISO 100, then S(m) is more like ISO 250-300 -- and still has 50-60mpx resolution!
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Show me a bayer-filter that throws away 3/4 of the incoming light and I'll show pigs that can fly
I am assuming, you also remove AA filter from the b&w sensor, and give the 20M photosite sensor 20 million pixel resolution. This also means that you will accept aliasing.
With bayer filtered sensors and a good debayering algorithm, one gets very close to the same resolution in real life images. The monochrome sensor's images will have a a little more bite to the images, but nowhere near the magniture you represent.
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S(m) noise would look like S(c) noise around ISO 1200. Yeah, an 8x-10x performance gain!!
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A monochrome sensor might give about a stop, at most a bit more advantage over a bayer color sensor. Without bayer filter the sensor receives about twice the photons, maybe a bit more. However, while the perceive shot noise goes down, the read noise does not. Relatively speaking the higher ISOs improve more on the greyscale sensor than the lower ISO images (on typical CMOS-sensor based devices) as the shot noise is amplified more than the read noise. |
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