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Mirror lens not good for Moon shot?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:13 pm    Post subject: Mirror lens not good for Moon shot? Reply with quote
I recently bought an used Vivitar 500mm f8 mirror lens like this:


I compared it with a Beroflex 500mm f8 telephoto with Moon shots of last night. To my dissappointment, the mirror lens is very poor compared with the Beroflex. Is mirror lens generally bad for Moon shooting? My camera is Canon Rebel T2i, and the two lenses were mounted via C/Y to EOS adapter without chips.

Beroflex lens:



Moon shot with Beroflex (handheld, 1/1000 sec, ISO 400):



Moon shot with Vivitar 500mm mirror lens (on tripod, 1/125 sec, ISO 100)


PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Your 500mm lens is it not reach exactly at the last position infinity distance on your current gear. I suggest to set correct infinity at day time and mark on focus collar. At night time rotate focus there when you now infinity is perfect not until to end.

This is one note better variant , worst , your lens is crap at infinity.


PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is able to focus at infinity, actually it can pass infinity. Also, I mounted the camera on tripod and use live view mode to focus. The foucs range is tiny, but it was the best focus that I can get.


PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
riverfour wrote:
It is able to focus at infinity, actually it can pass infinity. Also, I mounted the camera on tripod and use live view mode to focus. The foucs range is tiny, but it was the best focus that I can get.


So this lens is crap , quiet common on cheap mirrors.


PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is not unusual for cheap mirrors to deliver sub-standard performance. Whereas cheap refractors often do very well. But quality mirrors can do a good job.

Meade 10" LX-3 telescope, Nikon F2, Tri-X


PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lots of great moonshots are taken with mirror telescopes, including closeups of just a few craters (with a barlow lens, I assume).

Sometimes seeing conditions are the limiting factor, with these larger scopes, but I doubt seeing conditions are a big problem with only 500mm of focal length.

When shooting the moon, I take many shots, refocusing between each one, and then pick the sharpest. There's was quite a variation in sharpness when I last tried this.

I assume we can rule out DSLR mirror shake in this case (lockup)?


PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
riverfour wrote:
It is able to focus at infinity, actually it can pass infinity. Also, I mounted the camera on tripod and use live view mode to focus. The foucs range is tiny, but it was the best focus that I can get.


So this lens is crap , quiet common on cheap mirrors.


+1 what Atilla said.


PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You can sometimes get half way acceptable results from a "cheap" mirror. I took this tonight using my MTO 1000A with a 5D. IIRC the lens cost me £80 + shipping.

Straight OOC - crop and resize only


Crop, aggressive sharpening etc, resize. Not to everyone's taste though .......


Certainly nowhere near a match for the MEADE. But not quite in the same league Smile

It is difficult to get good contrast when the moon is near full. It was still light really when I took this shot.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Mirror lens not good for Moon shot? Reply with quote
riverfour wrote:
I recently bought an used Vivitar 500mm f8 mirror lens like this:


That is a low quality mirror lens. I had a Phoenix variant (these are all made by Samyang) and I returned it after a couple of days. The f/6.3 version is supposed to be considerably better.

That being said, your Beroflex shot is very nice and sharp. It will be hard to best it.

My only moon shot so far is this one, with the Tokina mirror 500/8:



Not as sharp as your Beroflex and I think I might not have focused well either. But it seems sharper than what you got from the Vivitar.

Mirror lenses do have lower microcontrast, so they benefit from sharpening more than refractive designs. They also allow focusing past infinity, to allow them to work in extreme temperatures, so that makes it a bit trickier to focus precisely on objects that are far away.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A really interesting thread...this is my latest with the Tamron SP500/8 55b Mirror.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you all for sharing the mirror lens experience. It appears that the resolution on mirror lens is somewhat limited. I guess the light weight plus compact size do carry a bit loss on image quality.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
riverfour wrote:
Thank you all for sharing the mirror lens experience. It appears that the resolution on mirror lens is somewhat limited. I guess the light weight plus compact size do carry a bit loss on image quality.


Resolution is not limited on mirror lenses, just need to take a good one not from budget level range, Nikon, Leica, Tamron SP, Minolta, Carl Zeiss, Carl Zeiss Jena, MTO etc.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Two US-based telescope makers, Meade and Celestron, have both built 1000mm mirror telephotos in the past that are often found configured as telescopes, spotting scopes, or lenses and often they can be bought for fairly cheap -- cheaper than Canon, Nikon, Tamron, etc. These are actually very good lenses. So, something to consider.

I used to own a Celestron just like this one. It was a sharp lens.
Click here to see on Ebay


PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just tried my Tamron 500mm on my NEX-5 because the moon is so bright at the moment, I was quite pleased with the result, it's not razor sharp at 100% but better than I expected.

It seems to work better on my NEX-5 than on my Panasonic G1, the smaller sensor on the G1 might just need to much resolution from the lens or there might be shutter slap because sometimes I'm certain the image looks sharper on the lcd at 100% than the photo does after trying many times but every shot I took with the NEX came out decently sharp.


DSC00447 by fatdeeman, on Flickr


PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That looks pretty good to me, lots of contrast.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
Two US-based telescope makers, Meade and Celestron, have both built 1000mm mirror telephotos in the past that are often found configured as telescopes, spotting scopes, or lenses and often they can be bought for fairly cheap -- cheaper than Canon, Nikon, Tamron, etc. These are actually very good lenses. So, something to consider.

I used to own a Celestron just like this one. It was a sharp lens.
Click here to see on Ebay


I have a similar lens at 800mm by Bausch and Lomb. I haven't tried it against the moon but it is pretty pants in daylight on a FF camera. Not sharp in the middle and TOTALLY WEIRD at the edges Sad. A VERY bad purchase.



PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
+1 Smile

Here in Portland Oregon I would be happy just being able to SEE the bloody Moon through all the couds, rain and shit! Sad Sad

Doug

martyn_bannister wrote:
That looks pretty good to me, lots of contrast.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nemesis101 wrote:
+1 Smile

Here in Portland Oregon I would be happy just being able to SEE the bloody Moon through all the couds, rain and shit! Sad Sad

Doug

martyn_bannister wrote:
That looks pretty good to me, lots of contrast.


I feel your pain! It's been bl**dy cloudy here in southern UK for the last 6 bl**dy months Sad Sad Sad

Or so it seems Smile


PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
nemesis101 wrote:

Here in Portland Oregon I would be happy just being able to SEE the bloody Moon through all the couds, rain and shit! Sad Sad


I concur from Seattle Smile


PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
fatdeeman wrote:
Just tried my Tamron 500mm on my NEX-5 because the moon is so bright at the moment, I was quite pleased with the result, it's not razor sharp at 100% but better than I expected.

It seems to work better on my NEX-5 than on my Panasonic G1, the smaller sensor on the G1 might just need to much resolution from the lens or there might be shutter slap because sometimes I'm certain the image looks sharper on the lcd at 100% than the photo does after trying many times but every shot I took with the NEX came out decently sharp.


DSC00447 by fatdeeman, on Flickr


Dang, Dave, I was starting to feel better about my Tamron 500's results until I saw this. Geez, that's a really nice image. Blows my best all to hell.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It was said tomorrow's Moon would be the brightest, but let me catch it today again. I used Beroflex 500mm again, handheld. No contrast adjustment, just cropping and a bit sharpening in LR3.

f8, 1/640s, ISO100



PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I tried quite a few different mirror lenses, and here are my observations.

The best:
- Yashica ML Reflex 500/8 (must be ML; older non-ML version reportedly not as good)
- Russian mirrors: Rubinar MC 1000/10, MC3M-7K 300/5.6
- Olympus OM Zuiko 500/8

Good:
- Tokina 500/8 (close focusing but not quite as sharp as the best mirrors)

Ugly:
- Focal 300/5.6 (made in Japan, manufacturer unknown)
- Vivitar/Samyang/Bower/Opteka 500/8


PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:21 pm    Post subject: Mirror lens prices insane? Reply with quote
http://cgi.ebay.com/Olympus-OM-Reflex-8-500mm-102314-/160559202685?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item256213017d

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tamron-SP-Tele-Macro-Catadioptric-8-500-mm-921039-/160559753765?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item25621b6a25

http://cgi.ebay.com/DEITZ-REFLEX-MC-500mm-MIRROR-LENS-PENTAX-M42-SCREW-MOUN-/310302499068?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item483f7860fc

Doug

(there are loads more, seemingly ANYTHING with 500mm on it, whether mirror or refractive is going for huge money - or rather, huge sums are being asked...)


PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Mirror lens prices insane? Reply with quote
nemesis101 wrote:

(there are loads more, seemingly ANYTHING with 500mm on it, whether mirror or refractive is going for huge money - or rather, huge sums are being asked...)


Have a look at how much the 350mm mirrors go for then! That'll make your hair stand on end Smile


PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Mirror lens prices insane? Reply with quote
nemesis101 wrote:

(there are loads more, seemingly ANYTHING with 500mm on it, whether mirror or refractive is going for huge money - or rather, huge sums are being asked...)


Except for the Samyang/Phoenix/Bower/Rokinon, etc. junk.

Something that I just don't understand is this: Samyang has proven that they can build outstanding optics when they want to. So why don't they build to this same quality level with mirror lenses too?
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