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Manual Focus Lens with the Dreamiest Watercolor Bokeh?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:20 pm    Post subject: Manual Focus Lens with the Dreamiest Watercolor Bokeh? Reply with quote
I have been researching this topic and have come across some candidates:

Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 58mm f2
Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 75mm f1.5
Leica Summarit 50mm f1.5
Leica Thambar 90mm (f2.2 lens) (original)
Carl Zeiss Jena Biometar 80mm f/2.8
Contax (Zeiss) Planar 80/2
Contax (Zeiss) Planar 50/1.4
Helios 40-2 85/1.5

Later clarification: I mean more a watercolor effect rather than a busy helter-skelter type of bokeh effect.

I would really like to hear from the people here about whether you agree regarding the above list and also hopefully offer more candidates.

Thanks,

-Charles

Last edited by charley5 on Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kino Plasmats? Wink


PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dreamiest or Dizziest?


PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Most simple answer would be: the fastest one. But "dreamiest" is so subjective.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:
Most simple answer would be: the fastest one. But "dreamiest" is so subjective.


Subjective indeed. The dreamiest is arguably the Canon "Dream Lens" 50mm f0.95



However the Canon 50mm f1.2 LTM is no slouch either



Someone mention Kino Plasmats. This is the 25mm f1.5



I am a big fan of the Elgeet Cine Navitar 2 inch f1.5



For absolute bokeh, nothing beats the Dallmeyer Super Sixes. This is the 8 inch f2.0



Angenieux projection lens, Type 86, 100mm f1.2



The Aires Coral-S 4.5cm f1.5 has interesting bokeh, I'm not sure I'd call it dreamy



For wides, there is the Auto Takumar 35mm f2.3



Wollensak Fastax 35mm f2.0



A scientific lens, the Wollensak Velostigmat 3 inch f2.0, one of my favorites



Absolute weirdness, the Astro Nitor 105mm projection lens



That's for starters, plenty more that could go on the list.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
Kino Plasmats? Wink


Ok. Will check it out.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
Dreamiest or Dizziest?


More like a watercolor painting than raindrops during the apocalypse.

-Charles


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:
Most simple answer would be: the fastest one. But "dreamiest" is so subjective.


It is subjective. I am more interested in a watercolor effect than the busy helter-skelter bokeh seen on some lenses.

-Charles


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kymarto wrote:
Pancolart wrote:
Most simple answer would be: the fastest one. But "dreamiest" is so subjective.


Subjective indeed. The dreamiest is arguably the Canon "Dream Lens" 50mm f0.95

However the Canon 50mm f1.2 LTM is no slouch either

Someone mention Kino Plasmats. This is the 25mm f1.5

I am a big fan of the Elgeet Cine Navitar 2 inch f1.5

For absolute bokeh, nothing beats the Dallmeyer Super Sixes. This is the 8 inch f2.0

Angenieux projection lens, Type 86, 100mm f1.2

The Aires Coral-S 4.5cm f1.5 has interesting bokeh, I'm not sure I'd call it dreamy

For wides, there is the Auto Takumar 35mm f2.3

Wollensak Fastax 35mm f2.0

A scientific lens, the Wollensak Velostigmat 3 inch f2.0, one of my favorites

Absolute weirdness, the Astro Nitor 105mm projection lens

That's for starters, plenty more that could go on the list.


Wow. These are great. Thank you for posting them! I am more interested in a watercolor effect than raindrops in the apocalypse. I should have been more specific in my original post.
The Canon 50mm f1.2 LTM, Angenieux projection lens and the Astro Nitor 105mm seem to have these qualities. I shall do more research on them. Any others that have a watercolor type of bokeh?

Thanks,

-Charles


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
...

Last edited by Blazer0ne on Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
charley5 wrote:
Pancolart wrote:
Most simple answer would be: the fastest one. But "dreamiest" is so subjective.


It is subjective. I am more interested in a watercolor effect than the busy helter-skelter bokeh seen on some lenses.

-Charles


It's important to realize that bokeh changes a lot depending on focal distance and amount of blur. A lens that seems very busy focused a bit farther away can have much softer bokeh when focused a bit closer. As an example, here are two shots with a Cyclop 85mm f1.5, which is optically identical to the Helios 40-2





I'm still not sure what you mean exactly by watercolor, but here are a few candidates. First, Kodak Aero Ektar 178mm f2.5



Angenieux Type 65 projection lens 90mm



Bausch & Lomb Super Cinephor II 5.25 inch f1.8



Cosina 55mm f1.2 (PK mount)



Fujinon 55mm f1.6 (M42)



Isco Isco-Mat or Westromat 50mm f1.9



Meopta Meostigmat 35mm f1.3 projection lens (APSC)



Spiratone 135mm f1.8



Zenitar 1 85mm f1.4



Zeiss Kipronar projection lens 120mm f1.9




Anything like these?


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You started your list with the Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 58mm f2. And it would start my list too, although I suspect what you call creamy, is what I call frosted (from the type of door glass you can buy).

Check out Florence Richerataux on flickr, Charles. She notes the lens on each of her quite wonderful pictures. That should give you some food for thought.

Last edited by Sciolist on Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Takumar 50mm 1.4, Zenitar 50mm 1.7, Tair 11 133/135mm 2.8, Takumar 58mm 2.0 (sonnar), Meyer optik Orestor 135mm 1:2.8 (or later Pentacon). Auto-Chinon 50mm 1:1.4 MULTI-COATED (also the 1.7 version is very nice).


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Blazer0ne wrote:
charley5 wrote:
D1N0 wrote:
Dreamiest or Dizziest?


More like a watercolor painting than raindrops during the apocalypse.

-Charles


"Raindrops during the apocalypse"

Killer name for a death metal rock band album! Wink

I recall reading about a 55mm Chinon being described by someone else as having "watercolor" bokeh. Not sure which model, but it was from this forum.


Thanks. I did some research on the Chinon. Not quite up to snuff as far as the quality of the bokeh is concerned.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kymarto wrote:
charley5 wrote:
Pancolart wrote:
Most simple answer would be: the fastest one. But "dreamiest" is so subjective.


It is subjective. I am more interested in a watercolor effect than the busy helter-skelter bokeh seen on some lenses.

-Charles


It's important to realize that bokeh changes a lot depending on focal distance and amount of blur. A lens that seems very busy focused a bit farther away can have much softer bokeh when focused a bit closer. As an example, here are two shots with a Cyclop 85mm f1.5, which is optically identical to the Helios 40-2

I'm still not sure what you mean exactly by watercolor, but here are a few candidates. First, Kodak Aero Ektar 178mm f2.5

Angenieux Type 65 projection lens 90mm

Bausch & Lomb Super Cinephor II 5.25 inch f1.8

Cosina 55mm f1.2 (PK mount)

Fujinon 55mm f1.6 (M42)

Isco Isco-Mat or Westromat 50mm f1.9

Meopta Meostigmat 35mm f1.3 projection lens (APSC)

Spiratone 135mm f1.8

Zenitar 1 85mm f1.4

Zeiss Kipronar projection lens 120mm f1.9


Anything like these?


Thank you for sharing these images. There are some excellent renditions here but my favorites are the Zenitar 1 85mm, Fujinon 55mm, and the Meopta Meostigmat 35mm. I will do more research on these lenses!

-Charles


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sciolist wrote:
You started your list with the Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 58mm f2. And it would start my list too, although I suspect what you call creamy, is what I call frosted (from the type of door glass you can buy).

Check out Florence Richerataux on flickr, Charles. She notes the lens on each of her quite wonderful pictures. That should give you some food for thought.


Thank you. She has done some spectacular macro work, no doubt. I wish there were more portraits shown though. As it is, it was a great pleasure to visit her page!

-Charles


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
Takumar 50mm 1.4, Zenitar 50mm 1.7, Tair 11 133/135mm 2.8, Takumar 58mm 2.0 (sonnar), Meyer optik Orestor 135mm 1:2.8 (or later Pentacon). Auto-Chinon 50mm 1:1.4 MULTI-COATED (also the 1.7 version is very nice).


These are excellent suggestions! I added several of them to my list. Thank you!

-Charles


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
...

Last edited by Blazer0ne on Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
...

Last edited by Blazer0ne on Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Blazer0ne wrote:
kymarto wrote:


Zeiss Kipronar projection lens 120mm f1.9

Anything like these?


Not to mention, the same lens can have multiple bokeh effects depending on the lighting and distance situation.

Carl Zeiss Jena Kipronar 1:1.9 f=12.5cm



Thanks. Yes, I was intending to get one of the Kipronar's, probably this one or the 140mm f1.9.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Creamy smooth Biotars, of course! The Takumar 1:2 f=58mm (sonnar) has it too...suspect nearly any sonnar fits criteria...


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for, but it won't cost you much to find out! These are photos taken with a Russian Helios 44-2, 58mm f/2.0 lens (a really nice Zeiss Biotar clone). The weird swirls result from my removing the front element of the lens and putting it back in reversed. All the effects are right out of the camera. There is no Photoshop magic here! Photos were taken on the Sony A7 Mii.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm not sure what you mean by "Raindrops during the apocalypse" (yes an awesome band name). My favorite bokeh lenses are:
Canon FL 58/1.2
Canon Dream Lens 50/0.9
Nikkor 58/1.4
Olympus OM 55/1.2
Minolta 58/1.2


PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The wonderful chinon 55mm F1.7 (monet Lens) by the way it can dreamily render



PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's a wildcard...the Fujinon 55 / 2.2.

It's famous for apocalyptic raindrops...


But it does creamy as well, and does it rather well I think.


It's a strange old lens, and usually dirt cheap. I like it. As long as there are no small highlights in the image the bokeh is lovely. The gravestone picture has a Holly tree in the background and the leaves are very reflective in sunlight, it's my bubble bokeh test.
The Lily has no highlights, even though it was a very sunny day. Both shots are wide open at the slow f2.2
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