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Rob Leslie
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 662
Location: UK Swindon
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 Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| lulalake wrote: | This is interesting however the Camera has some pretty iffy reviews. The image quality is very good however no matter what Sigma says, the end result is a 4mp file, not a 14mp file. Also, I have a friend that had one and sent it back due to the difficulty in navigating the menus. Personally, I would rather get an adapter for the Leica lenses and use them on something else.
All that work for a 4mp image seems a bit much IMO.
Jules |
I think this is fair comment. my friend is a big Ricoh fan he has the GRD, the GX100 and now the new GRD II, he is also a Canon 5D user. I use a Canon G5 regularly. With the PS we of course only shoot RAW.
The point is we are both very happy in fact often amazed at the results the PS produce. We have tested the new Canon G9 and find it hardly any better than the old G5 and G3 and certainly not worth 'Upgrading' too. the loss of real features would make it a stupid deal.
We would both like to try the Sigma but have not seen any good examples from it or heard any great reports. One trusted dealer has told us it is **** and he won't ever being stocking it and the results he showed us confirm his opinion. I would still like to try one just to see.
I do think it was brave of Sigma to make the camera but can't help wishing they would have made a better job of it. I would like to see Olympus make a decent PS using the 4/3 sensor,
A good APS sized sensor camera from another manufacturer may have pushed them into doing this? I don't think the Sigma is going to push any other manufacturer to give it go, in fact I believe they may have done more harm than good?
IMO it isn't a big leap or rocket science to put the 4/3 sensor into a neat little body with a big life sized bright line finder and the decent Olmpus 14-whatever lens. I mean how much would such a camera cost? But will they even consider it when they review the sales of the Sigma?
Perhaps the only thing we may be able to look forward to is being able to buy the Sigma for around £150 next year!
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F16SUNSHINE
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 2198
Location: Anacortes Washington
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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I think you are referring mostly to the Sigma DP1 in your thoughts. The topic of this thread is a mount modified Sigma SD14 DSLR. I have seen some very remarkable work come from the SD14. Lumping it with a fledgling P+S entry is not really very realistic. We have more than a couple Sigma Foveon DSLR users here at the forum. Once again the work that I have seen is far from humble. Of course I am not much of a Pixel Peeper and maybe therefore can not fathom what the concern is. What I do understand is there is sound theory behind 3 layers of 4MP being stacked up and compared to 10mp or 12mp interpolated. The natural look to the color saturation of a low ISO foveon shot is enough to convince me. There is something very promising to it. Promising enough to not dismiss it that is for sure. 
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 7117
Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| F16SUNSHINE wrote: | | I think you are referring mostly to the Sigma DP1 in your thoughts. The topic of this thread is a mount modified Sigma SD14 DSLR. I have seen some very remarkable work come from the SD14. Lumping it with a fledgling P+S entry is not really very realistic. We have more than a couple Sigma Foveon DSLR users here at the forum. Once again the work that I have seen is far from humble. Of course I am not much of a Pixel Peeper and maybe therefore can not fathom what the concern is. What I do understand is there is sound theory behind 3 layers of 4MP being stacked up and compared to 10mp or 12mp interpolated. The natural look to the color saturation of a low ISO foveon shot is enough to convince me. There is something very promising to it. Promising enough to not dismiss it that is for sure. |
I agree. It still is a 4 MPix picture, but most probably the best 4 MPix picture you can get.
There is so much information in such a frame that, if you blow it up to 10 Mpix, it will just look like a "regular" 10 MPix CMOS frame. I haven't tried, but that's what I think... (and I have seem some shots...pretty impressive.)
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Green are the lenses I shoot the most.
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Rob Leslie
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 662
Location: UK Swindon
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Sorry. Yes I was referring to the Sigma DP1.
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Pentax K10D & K100D. Many Tamron Adaptall SP lenses, Fujinon f4.5 400mm. A loved Lens Baby 2, Lubitel triplet +++ and many many film cameras. Mainly a Digital user.
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 11664
Location: West Emilia
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: |
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In any case I have some lenses that I'm very happy with and I would like to see them in action on a foveon sensor even if just too see how different they look from a CMOS/CCD result.
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 14626
Location: Budapest,Hungary
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Very cool avatar Orio!!!
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patrickh
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 3100
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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I have long felt that the foveon is probably the best basis for a really competent sensor and, as others have mentioned, the published results from this SD14 have a magnificent depth to them (spatially and colour). Unfortunately it has never received the kind of big money support that could have driven the research to a point at which it became an obvious candidate. The sensor is little improved over where it was five years ago and the other sensors (despite their Bayer configuration) have definitely caught up a lot of the ground. There is also the lack of clear compatibility with non-Sigma manufactured lenses other than the fairly recent M42 adapter. My big problem years ago and even today was the "only Sigma" constraint. If someone were to produce a range of adapters like those for the Canon system....
patrickh
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LUIS A GUEVARA
Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Miami,Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| patrickh wrote: | I have long felt that the foveon is probably the best basis for a really competent sensor and, as others have mentioned, the published results from this SD14 have a magnificent depth to them (spatially and colour). Unfortunately it has never received the kind of big money support that could have driven the research to a point at which it became an obvious candidate. The sensor is little improved over where it was five years ago and the other sensors (despite their Bayer configuration) have definitely caught up a lot of the ground. There is also the lack of clear compatibility with non-Sigma manufactured lenses other than the fairly recent M42 adapter. My big problem years ago and even today was the "only Sigma" constraint. If someone were to produce a range of adapters like those for the Canon system....
patrickh |
Very true.
There is a profound difference between a stacked architecture and a Bayer one. The Trilayered ,stacked photosite of a Foveon sensor measures Luminance and Chrominance all in one photosite , therefore the Pixel size is equal to the photosite size ( Aprox 5 Microns)
The Bayer sensor instead requires at least 3 Photosites(Photoreceptors) to make up one Pixel . Since typical Photoreceptors size is 5 micron then to make up a Bayer Pixel requires at least a a 20 micron square.
That is a very big pixel!!
Worst , given the big size of that pixel , where the Bayer sensor can see ONE pixel , the Foveon sensor can distinguish FOUR!!
If this is not enough to get you warm , think about this : The Bayer striped sensor uses its neighbor photo sites Data, to construct color at any given point so you can clearly see that it can never be sharp , since the separation between Data Points becomes Fuzzy the minute that you start sharing border information between Photosites . Throw interpolation into the mix........and you will have a clear understanding why a Foveon sensor has such a magnificent Spatial and Color depth.
Put good Glass at the front of an SD14 and a good Brain behind ,and see how quickly great images come out.
Luis
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Xpres
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 163
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| LUIS A GUEVARA wrote: |
Very true.
There is a profound difference between a stacked architecture and a Bayer one. The Trilayered ,stacked photosite of a Foveon sensor measures Luminance and Chrominance all in one photosite , therefore the Pixel size is equal to the photosite size ( Aprox 5 Microns)
The Bayer sensor instead requires at least 3 Photosites(Photoreceptors) to make up one Pixel . Since typical Photoreceptors size is 5 micron then to make up a Bayer Pixel requires at least a a 20 micron square.
That is a very big pixel!!
Worst , given the big size of that pixel , where the Bayer sensor can see ONE pixel , the Foveon sensor can distinguish FOUR!!
If this is not enough to get you warm , think about this : The Bayer striped sensor uses its neighbor photo sites Data, to construct color at any given point so you can clearly see that it can never be sharp , since the separation between Data Points becomes Fuzzy the minute that you start sharing border information between Photosites . Throw interpolation into the mix........and you will have a clear understanding why a Foveon sensor has such a magnificent Spatial and Color depth.
Put good Glass at the front of an SD14 and a good Brain behind ,and see how quickly great images come out.
Luis |
I have recently bought an sd14 for these very reasons. It struck me that the camera would also be particularly good for black and white work which I enjoy most.
I'm still toying with it at the moment but will post examples soon.
I don't feel brave enough to change the mount although if I did it would be to an EOS mount to take advantage of the EOS adapters.
As it is it's limited to M42 and adapted PK as although the register is OK for others the opening isn't wide enough. The only other option is to change mounts of the lenses which I don't want to do ( well I might try with one or two cheap ones).
For now I'm going to work through my tamrons and M42s and see what suits.
Flek's first.  |
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Rob Leslie
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 662
Location: UK Swindon
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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My local dealer now has the Sigma SD 14.
Already reduced and on special offer Body only £399
http://www.t4cameras.co.uk/
Left menu. Specials.
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Pentax K10D & K100D. Many Tamron Adaptall SP lenses, Fujinon f4.5 400mm. A loved Lens Baby 2, Lubitel triplet +++ and many many film cameras. Mainly a Digital user.
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timo832000
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting, I never thougt it would be possible to do.
But for my purposes (low light shooting) a Pentax K20d or a Nikon d300 wood be better. But if it works with Sigma maybe it also could be done with a Pentax.
Greetings from Germany
Timo |
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DSG
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 106
Location: London, UK.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| lulalake wrote: | This is interesting however the Camera has some pretty iffy reviews. The image quality is very good however no matter what Sigma says, the end result is a 4mp file, not a 14mp file.
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The end result is indeed a 4.6 mp size image on your monitor screen but with the same resolution and detail as a 12mp Canon EOS 5D, as has been clearly shown in numerous SD14 and DP1 vs 5D comparisons.
| lulalake wrote: |
Also, I have a friend that had one and sent it back due to the difficulty in navigating the menus.
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Was your friend blind?...The menu system on Sigma DSLR's could'nt get any simpler!
| lulalake wrote: |
Personally, I would rather get an adapter for the Leica lenses and use them on something else.
Jules |
Sure you could use them on a 5D and get the same results but you will need deep pockets because the 5D costs three times more than the SD14. |
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