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Just bought a DP1
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
LOL!

After about 5 hrs in various queues, I managed to get home. Stuck in CDG is different than stuck in Paris. Smile

Anyway, the DP2 rode in my jacket pocket the whole time. It's a nice change compared even to my tiny Kx. I was in the Louvre today and there was a guy next to me with a Canon 1ds: carrying a lead ball around to take snapshots of egyptian antiquities in a museum is not my idea of a vacation...


PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ludoo wrote:
LOL!

After about 5 hrs in various queues, I managed to get home. Stuck in CDG is different than stuck in Paris. Smile

Anyway, the DP2 rode in my jacket pocket the whole time. It's a nice change compared even to my tiny Kx. I was in the Louvre today and there was a guy next to me with a Canon 1ds: carrying a lead ball around to take snapshots of egyptian antiquities in a museum is not my idea of a vacation...


Laughing The 1Ds is a giant.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio, this is a three-way comparison by a pro photographer between a DP1, a G11, and a Rebel T2i

http://darwinwiggett.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/a-field-review-of-the-sigma-dp1x/

The little Sigma is clearly on the same level as an APS-C DSLR, and behaves great especially in handling colours and dynamic range. Of course, its sensor is about 7x larger than the one in the G11, or other typical compacts.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I would not consider sharpness as it isn't sensor related.
(it may be related to AA filtering but that is external to sensor)
I would consider colour, especially, I would like to see if starting from the RAW files and using the same colour balance in each image, the Sigma camera can produce really better colours.
I am of the impression that the differences that are shown in this comparison are simply due to the different white balance - which is pretty obvious if you look at the white objects in the scenes.
The rea comparison can only happen if the two photographs are raw developed using the same Kelvin temperature and tint. Then we can see what are the differences with the colour profiles. Otherwise it is useless to compare.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, a larger sensor compared to the tiny ones in compact cameras has definitive advantages, this is without doubt. I'm not saying the Foveon is better (maybe just different), just that the DP1/DP2 hold their own against DSLRs while still being as small and light as most compacts. And they are definitely in a different class as for iq compared to other compacts.

As for colour, the samples in the article linked above were developed from raw in lightroom, using the exact same settings for all three cameras. I guess that answers your request.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ludoo wrote:
Well, a larger sensor compared to the tiny ones in compact cameras has definitive advantages, this is without doubt. I'm not saying the Foveon is better (maybe just different), just that the DP1/DP2 hold their own against DSLRs while still being as small and light as most compacts. And they are definitely in a different class as for iq compared to other compacts.

As for colour, the samples in the article linked above were developed from raw in lightroom, using the exact same settings for all three cameras. I guess that answers your request.


But evidently they were balanced on the Sigma camera. There is not one Canon image that shows balanced white, there is no Sigma image that shows unbalanced white. Is that really fair comparison? What would happen if the pictures were balanced with the values for the Canon camera? The Sigma images would look wrong just as the Canon images do look wrong now.

Call me a Tommaso, but I want to "ficcarci il naso" myself with the RAW files. I am always of the impression that all the Foveon-related reviews are made by devoted fans Wink there is nothing bad with that, but I know that I will make an unbiased test if I have the RAW files myself - while I am not so sure about the other people's tests Wink


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dear Mr. (San) Tommaso Smile

we could solve the issue once and for all with a new great episode of the Orio Test Series: I will receive a DP1 shortly from Germany, and since I already have the DP2 I was going to sell it, but if you have the time and interest I can divert it to your house, so that you can keep it for the Christmas holidays.

How does it sound? Smile


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ludoo wrote:
Dear Mr. (San) Tommaso Smile

we could solve the issue once and for all with a new great episode of the Orio Test Series: I will receive a DP1 shortly from Germany, and since I already have the DP2 I was going to sell it, but if you have the time and interest I can divert it to your house, so that you can keep it for the Christmas holidays.

How does it sound? Smile


Thanks for the offer Ludo Very Happy But it's not necessary, Jesito said he will take comparative photos, if he shares the raws, that will be enough.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
Thanks for the offer Ludo Very Happy But it's not necessary, Jesito said he will take comparative photos, if he shares the raws, that will be enough.


Ok, then I can do the same tomorrow with the K-x with a 24 or 30mm on (to compare to the DP2's 41mm) and DP2. That is if you don't mind boring subjects.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ludoo wrote:
Orio wrote:
Thanks for the offer Ludo Very Happy But it's not necessary, Jesito said he will take comparative photos, if he shares the raws, that will be enough.


Ok, then I can do the same tomorrow with the K-x with a 24 or 30mm on (to compare to the DP2's 41mm) and DP2. That is if you don't mind boring subjects.


Sure, go on.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Canon G12 ist a great cam, but if somebody would offer me a Sigma DP2 or a G12, I would choose the DP2 without any hesitation.
The rather small sensor of the Digilux 2 is (apart from the viewfinder) the only thing that I would like to be different.
I imagine a Digilux 2x with a 4/3 sensor and a 2-2.4/14-45 (~28-90) lens and a better viewfinder. I guess I would sell most of my other stuff to buy that cam.

Back to the Foveon discussion: I am looking forward to seeing the results of your comparisons...


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
LucisPictor wrote:
I imagine a Digilux 2x with a 4/3 sensor and a 2-2.4/14-45 (~28-90) lens and a better viewfinder. I guess I would sell most of my other stuff to buy that cam.


Me too. And I really don't understand what's keeping Leica/Panasonic from releasing one, since they already have all the necessary technology.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
LucisPictor wrote:

The rather small sensor of the Digilux 2 is (apart from the viewfinder) the only thing that I would like to be different.


I think these compact cameras are intended to be snapshot cameras (I don't think anyone would shoot professional photographs with them).
So for a snapshot camera, the sensor size is not really important in my opinion. As long as the image quality is good, a size that lets you print a good 20x30 cm enlargement is more than enough for the purpose.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
I think these compact cameras are intended to be snapshot cameras (I don't think anyone would shoot professional photographs with them).


There are many of us who like good quality in a very compact package, and the small sensor cameras are too limited to deliver it. I am only keeping my DSLR for a commercial web project (not photo-centric but photos play an important role) I have planned where I need a fast semi-wide and high iso to use a polarizer with little light, otherwise I would have sold it and all my lenses and only kept a couple small cameras (DP2 and probably the Digilux 2 which I sold to Carsten).


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Please look at this interesting article where the SD14 is compared against a Canon EOS 5D:

http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/

There are some interesting samples.

Hope this clarify many things...

Regards.
Jes.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jes, I know this review since a long time. I don't think it clarifies anything. It keeps insisting on the sharpness, which is something that is determined by a number of factors, #1 being the lens used. The reviewer sentences that the 5D is not sharp enough compared to the SD14, but what lens did he use on the 5D? At what aperture? I have photos taken with my 5D that will cut his eyes so much they are sharp.

This kind of clearly biased reviews are not reliable. The reviewer himself starts by saying that he

Quote:
never quite got the hang of my Canon 5D


and

Quote:
Worse, I just could never get a shot from the 5D that I felt lived up to my expectations as far as sharpness and detail.


this, speaking of a camera that has been the camera of many professionals for at least 3 years.
While he said he was at ease with the 300D - which I also had, and was light years behind the quality of the 5D.
So this sheds a light on how reliable this reviewer is. If he prefers the output of the 300D over that of the 5D (!), how reliable can his other judgements be?

I still wait to lay my hands on a set of good and comparable raw files.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I could do a quick comparison between the SD14 and 5D2 and could include the DP1 as well. Shall I? How though?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Xpres wrote:
I could do a quick comparison between the SD14 and 5D2 and could include the DP1 as well. Shall I? How though?


Simply, take pictures of the same subject in the same lighting condition, preferably on tripod but not necessarily.
We will evaluate colours not sharpness, so lens choice is not really relevant, if possible use the same lens, if not possible choose two good lenses that perform similarly.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You are right, Orio. To compare sensors in an unbiassed way, we should use the same lens...

I can take some shots with the SD9 and the 30D with the same M42 lens (unfortunately I don't have any 5D at hand).

Hope this weekend will be sunny (and prone to photo testing).

Regards.

Jes.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
J
Quote:
Worse, I just could never get a shot from the 5D that I felt lived up to my expectations as far as sharpness and detail.


this, speaking of a camera that has been the camera of many professionals for at least 3 years.
While he said he was at ease with the 300D - which I also had, and was light years behind the quality of the 5D.
So this sheds a light on how reliable this reviewer is. If he prefers the output of the 300D over that of the 5D (!), how reliable can his other judgements be?

I still wait to lay my hands on a set of good and comparable raw files.


Composing on full frame is more difficult than with a crop cam and if you use bad lenses, you will discover that on FF more easily. Wink

My SD10 is a real fun cam, but it does not hold a chance against my 5D. OK, this comparison is not really fair.

However, I like the Foveon technology because shooting with it reminds me of shooting on film for whatever reason. Perhaps because I do not have the immediate results due to the lack of JPGs. I don't know.

I am happy to have (3) CMOS-DSLRs and a Foveon-DSLR. 'Cause that's my hobby and I like to play around with my gear. I don't think that I would have a good reason to choose Foveon over the CMOS if it was my job. But I think that you can also be highly satisfied if you "only" have a Foveon chip.
And the DP2, for me, is - apart from the X1 - the best compact cam you can find. And the X1 goes for three times as much!


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jesito wrote:
You are right, Orio. To compare sensors in an unbiassed way, we should use the same lens...

I can take some shots with the SD9 and the 30D with the same M42 lens (unfortunately I don't have any 5D at hand).

Hope this weekend will be sunny (and prone to photo testing).

Regards.

Jes.


I could offer a comparison of the SD10, the 300D, the 40D and the 5D with the same lens.
But I'm afraid, I do not have the time to do that ATM. Way too much to do until the 19th.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK - I'll do it in the morning. I'll compare using two or three lenses that I can put on both cameras. How can I share a raw file?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This thread is becoming really interesting, in no small part thanks to Orio's stubborness. Smile

Xpres wrote:
OK - I'll do it in the morning. I'll compare using two or three lenses that I can put on both cameras. How can I share a raw file?


This is a reliably and free file sharing service

http://www.zshare.net/

You might want to rename the files so that it's easily recognisable which camera/lens/aperture they were made with, and upload them separately.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have Lightroom, Capture One Pro, and Bibble.

I will process the images in two ways, one by colour balancing each of them on a white or gray object (please include one in the test photos), and one by setting the WB to a standard value (e.g. 5200K if taken outdoors) to evaluate colour shifts (keeping in mind that also the lens can play a role).

I will also use different colour profiles, I will first use the standard profile of the application (in the case of lightroom, the "adobe standard", which is likely to work badly for all cameras Laughing ), then I will use the custom profiles that are provided for each camera (if available).

Ideally each camera should have its own profile created (for instance with Color Checker Passport), but even without that it should be possible to do a decent comparison.

The concept of the comparison is: I think that all these cameras, when custom white balanced, will present acceptable pictures. But white balancing does not make up for color profiling or for differences in the color recording. So when all pictures will be properly balanced, the remaining colour difference can depend only on three things: the lens (hopefully using a single lens will eliminate this), the software color profile (and the impact of this may be minimized by testing various profiles), or the actual sensor's work - which is what we want to find about.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, time was against me this morning so I didn't manage all that I intended. But I did get a couple of shots, one from the SD14 and one from the 5D2, with an OM 90/2.
Exposure at 100 iso was 1/160 f4. So there are two raw files to download.
I'm afraid the shot was a bit dull, I just put the tripod up by the boot of the car - I had only a few minutes.
If these are no good I can try again tomorrow when I'll have more time.

SD14.X3F - 15.61MB

5D2.CR2 - 30.05MB
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