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Jupiter-3 or sonnar 50mm f1.5 RF mount
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:57 pm    Post subject: Jupiter-3 or sonnar 50mm f1.5 RF mount Reply with quote
How close are these lenses? mainly interested in their bokeh & color. sharpness will be a bonus. These days both go for the same price on eBay

I shoot with A7r, I appreciate any comparison shots.

Thanks,
-Michael


PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The good news is that you can't lose regardless of which you choose (barring the possibility of acquiring a badly treated lens, which would apply to either choice). Both the Jupiter-3 and the Zeiss Sonnar 1.5/50 deliver an excellent image.

I don't have a J-3, having sold off my copy years ago. I do own two Zeiss 1.5/50 lenses, a pre-war Jena uncoated lens and a post-war T coated Opton lens.

I prefer the Zeiss versions because of the better quality body (chromed brass rather than aluminum), the Schott glass and the overall Zeiss experience in producing this lens. On the other hand, the J-3 was a premium product in the Soviet Union. My experience is limited but from what I have gathered over many years of using, discussing and following forums on classic lenses there was far less 'sample variation' in J-3 lenses than in other Soviet era lenses.

You really have three choices, an early, uncoated Zeiss lens, a late T coated Zeiss lens or a coated J-3. They will deliver slightly different images but all will be unquestioningly Sonnar.


PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.musashichan.com/boutique-vintagephotography-fr/categories/objectifs/jupiter-3-50mm-f-1-5-l39-nettoy%C3%A9-detail

I only have tried Js3...this is not the sharpest lens around but this is not why it's so nice...also, it's really sensible to flare.
The bokeh is fantastic, you'll need an extension ring to use it for portrait or proxy but it's so nice to shoot with. It seems that early '50s J3 are better, but of course more expensive. Some are claimed to have Zeiss glasses...


PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Musashichan wrote:

I only have tried Js3...this is not the sharpest lens around but this is not why it's so nice...also, it's really sensible to flare.
The bokeh is fantastic, you'll need an extension ring to use it for portrait or proxy but it's so nice to shoot with. It seems that early '50s J3 are better, but of course more expensive. Some are claimed to have Zeiss glasses...
The minimum focus distance is 1 meter, so for portraits, no rings seem necessary. A helicoidal adapter can be useful for general use, but only brings back the distance to approx. 70cm.

A while ago, I've watched a video on youtube describing the different "generations" of the lens. I will look it up later.

As for the Zeiss-glass in a Jupiter-lens: there are rumours that early versions have it, but according to more detailed sources, those were labelled Sonnar Krasnogorsky and not yet as Jupiter. The rumours are benificial to the sellers though.

In any case, the Jupiter-3 is a very sweet lens. A much cheaper 50mm Sonnar is the Jupiter-8 (f/2.0 instead of 1.5), of which I use a 1984-version on my Leica; it has at least 90% of the magic. There's 4 main generations of it. I just ordered a 1954-version also Leica-calibrated, which has less advanced coatings and therefore a different character. Can't wait to send my 1952 J3 to Ukraine to have it CLAed and RF-calibrated too Thank You Dog

Lastly, there's the Jupiter 3+, a new (and meanwhile ended) production run with some modern improvements (coatings, minimum focus distance and a few other things). Reviews have been really positive, although I haven't tried one myself.


PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I did a Sonnar test for the Classic Lenses Podcast a few weeks ago, the test is far from conclusive as it concentrated on shooting at minimum focus distance, but you still might find it of interest.

Just take a look through the Classic Lenses Podcast thread on here and you will find the shots.


PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sjak wrote:
Musashichan wrote:

I only have tried Js3...this is not the sharpest lens around but this is not why it's so nice...also, it's really sensible to flare.
The bokeh is fantastic, you'll need an extension ring to use it for portrait or proxy but it's so nice to shoot with. It seems that early '50s J3 are better, but of course more expensive. Some are claimed to have Zeiss glasses...
The minimum focus distance is 1 meter, so for portraits, no rings seem necessary. A helicoidal adapter can be useful for general use, but only brings back the distance to approx. 70cm.

A while ago, I've watched a video on youtube describing the different "generations" of the lens. I will look it up later.

As for the Zeiss-glass in a Jupiter-lens: there are rumours that early versions have it, but according to more detailed sources, those were labelled Sonnar Krasnogorsky and not yet as Jupiter. The rumours are benificial to the sellers though.

In any case, the Jupiter-3 is a very sweet lens. A much cheaper 50mm Sonnar is the Jupiter-8 (f/2.0 instead of 1.5), of which I use a 1984-version on my Leica; it has at least 90% of the magic. There's 4 main generations of it. I just ordered a 1954-version also Leica-calibrated, which has less advanced coatings and therefore a different character. Can't wait to send my 1952 J3 to Ukraine to have it CLAed and RF-calibrated too Thank You Dog

Lastly, there's the Jupiter 3+, a new (and meanwhile ended) production run with some modern improvements (coatings, minimum focus distance and a few other things). Reviews have been really positive, although I haven't tried one myself.


I have a 1952 J-3 and to date it's the best J-3/Sonnar/Opton Sonnar I've owned (I've bought and sold about 10). It's not marked as SK, but Vladislav Kern of www.usssrphoto.com believes it is likely to have German optics in it. My Opton Sonnar is a pre 1000000 serial number version which is allegedly inferior to the later lenses.

I tried a J-3+ & a ZM Sonnar a couple of years ago at The Photography Show in Birmingham (UK), and whilst the J-3+ gave a look pretty much identical to an older J-3, the ZM was very clearly a step up from what I had been used to.

I have an 50/2 8K from 1951 and the word "Jupiter" is missing, I need to give it a go!


PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I wouldn't mind see a few shots of your Jupiter collection, and from it. Please Smile


PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:
I wouldn't mind see a few shots of your Jupiter collection, and from it. Please Smile


Just for you, although I've gone mad and dug out all my Sonnars... The 1952 J-3 is mounted with the 1951 Kiev I bought it with, I'm hoping that it's matched to it, I'll give it a go as soon as I've had the iris fixed as it's way too stiff.


PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
itsfozzy wrote:

I have a 1952 J-3 and to date it's the best J-3/Sonnar/Opton Sonnar I've owned (I've bought and sold about 10). It's not marked as SK, but Vladislav Kern of www.usssrphoto.com believes it is likely to have German optics in it. My Opton Sonnar is a pre 1000000 serial number version which is allegedly inferior to the later lenses.
Yes some put the "likely" on pre-54, others exclusively on pre-jupiter copies. I have to admit the glass/coating coloring on my 52 is different than what it would be for a 1st gen J3. This could indicate different origin, or a creative rebuild somewhere in its lifetime Question or yet another possibility, the info I read is incomplete in that regard. The fun of collecting old stuff Laughing


PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
In this thread, I will post a few J8-pics: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,1512119.html#1512119


PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A straight RAW to jpeg conversion in Lightroom without edits, with my 1952 J-3 & Sony A7 II, @f/2.


PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hello All,

Thanks a lot for sharing samples, your thoughts and findings. extremely useful. From this I gather, they are about same, so grab the one I can find at a good price. Strangely, I see J-3s in bad glass going for higher price compared to Zeiss-opton sonnar 50mm f1.5.
I will also looking into ZM version too.

Thanks,
-Michael.


PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
michaelanburaj wrote:
Strangely, I see J-3s in bad glass going for higher price compared to Zeiss-opton sonnar 50mm f1.5.
I will also looking into ZM version too.
They're about the same price range, but the Zeiss Opton are usually in the (for me less convenient) Contax mount, whereas Jupiter-3 is widely available in LTM.

Unless you're looking for a clean copy from before approx. 1960, you should be able to find a J3 in good condition for around 150 euro. A good Jupiter 8 in LTM will cost 25-50 euro.


PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for posting the group shot.


PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have two 1950 Jupiter-3's with Zeiss serial numbers on the rear fixture, definitely Zeiss optics in them. I believe the KMZ J-3's up until 1955 have Schott glass in them. The fixtures and shape of the rear triplet of the KMZ lenses are different from those that followed.

The Zeiss 50/1.5 Sonnars are sharper than most of my Jupiter-3's. The 1950 J-3's are noticeably better than the later ones, equivalent of the Wartime CZJ Sonnars.


With the Contax mount lenses- you will need a more expensive adapter. LTM Sonnars are rare, fragile, and expensive. Jupiters can be cans-of-worms.

Last edited by fiftyonepointsix on Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
fiftyonepointsix wrote:
I
And a now-good Valdai.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/90768661@N02/albums/72157661572992234

The shim was way, way off. Which is why the glass was perfect. No one ever used it.

With the Contax mount lenses- you will need a more expensive adapter. LTM Sonnars are rare, fragile, and expensive. Jupiters can be cans-of-worms.

What do you mean Valdai?
I have optical block of J3 which I have no idea from what mount, it looks like your 'valdai' retain_off only. it's quite sharp at wideopen than my zeiss opton sonnar 50/1,5 contax RF one.


PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
IAZA wrote:

What do you mean Valdai?


this means the lens of the plant "Jupiter" (Valdai city).

the logo is

http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-logos.html

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4_%C2%AB%D0%AE%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%C2%BB_(%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%B9)


PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
IAZA wrote:
fiftyonepointsix wrote:
I
And a now-good Valdai.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/90768661@N02/albums/72157661572992234

The shim was way, way off. Which is why the glass was perfect. No one ever used it.

With the Contax mount lenses- you will need a more expensive adapter. LTM Sonnars are rare, fragile, and expensive. Jupiters can be cans-of-worms.

What do you mean Valdai?
I have optical block of J3 which I have no idea from what mount, it looks like your 'valdai' retain_off only. it's quite sharp at wideopen than my zeiss opton sonnar 50/1,5 contax RF one.


Post a picture of the lens- the namering will show manufacturer and year of manufacture.




The Zeiss 50/1.5 that I am using was so bad that the owner gave it to me for free. The rear triplet was out of position. It is quite good now.

This 1952 J-3 required the glass to be moved to a new barrel,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/90768661@N02/albums/72157663433906899

Then the barrel moved to a new mount. The length of the original barrel was much too long. As stated- Jupiters can require a lot of attention.

1952 J-3 Wide-open,

Warm February Day by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

Totally worth the effort.


PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
j3_1 by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

1949 ZK, a pair of 1950 KMZ, 1956 KMZ, 1975 ZOMZ, and 1984 Valdai (black).

Japanese, Russian (1949 ZK and J3+) , and (wartime) German 5cm F1.5's.

J3Plus and Three Rare Sonnars by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

Three generations-

Three_Generations by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

1934 Sonnar (on camera), 1956 KMZ, 2016 J-3+.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
fiftyonepointsix wrote:
I have two 1950 Jupiter-3's with Zeiss serial numbers on the rear fixture, definitely Zeiss optics in them. I believe the KMZ J-3's up until 1955 have Schott glass in them. The fixtures and shape of the rear triplet of the KMZ lenses are different from those that followed.

The Zeiss 50/1.5 Sonnars are sharper than most of my Jupiter-3's. The 1950 J-3's are noticeably better than the later ones, equivalent of the Wartime CZJ Sonnars.


Thanks a lot for Great info. I have pickup a CZJ sonnar 50 1.5 postwar from 1945. I have managed to make put together RF contax adapter for FE mount, I have taken a few test shorts. I will post some samples later.

Thanks,
-Michael.
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