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"Hybrid", 3rd version of Super Takumar f1.4/50mm?!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome back Peter!


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spotmatic wrote:
Hi Andreas! Long time no see and best wishes to you! Smile


Hi Peter!
very happy to 'see' you again here, welcome back and best wishes to you too Smile

Spotmatic wrote:
Maybe I'm a simple mind but I'd say that the 8-element version can be distinguished from the 7-element version because the 8-element version has clear glass while the radioactive 7-element contains considerably yellowed elements. This is also clearly visible in the last photo you posted above.


this is a very good observation Peter, thank you! Actually I had noticed the color differences but was not sure if the 8 element must be without yellowing. The 'hybrid' is the most yellowed, therefore I take it, kind of conclude, that it is an early 7 element lens. I would think that it was manufactured during a transitional period, still various body parts of the earlier 8 element were used, and suspect that the reversed red and white marks might have been erroneously painted the wrong way around from a worker who still was used to producing the 8 element.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You fixed the aperture yet?


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tromboads wrote:
You fixed the aperture yet?


yes, that was the reason why I opened it in the first place. The full block simply needed to be inserted correctly, now the aperture is working normally


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Spotmatic's hint that if the lens has yellowed it cannot be the 8 element had made it clear that the 'hybrid' optically is a 7 element.
I don't like to open a lens, specially it's optics if it is not needed to, but after all that I wanted to see how different the 4th group of the 7 and 8 element lens look like, here it is:




to the left the 7 element, in the middle the 8 element, to the right the 'hybrid'
obviously the hybrid is a 7 element, that is the 4th group of the hybrid is made of only 2 elements, the 4th group of the 8 element made out of 3 elements is fatter


Last edited by kuuan on Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very well done !

I think you have certainly proven that this is a transitional type, and that it did come from the factory as it is.

New knowledge that is useful to all collectors. Many are going to have to examine their lenses again to make sure of what they've got.

This makes correct identification of the 8-element rather more difficult of course, as now it all depends on either yellowing or the shape of the rear element.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

luisalegria wrote:
Very well done !

I think you have certainly proven that this is a transitional type, and that it did come from the factory as it is.

New knowledge that is useful to all collectors. Many are going to have to examine their lenses again to make sure of what they've got.

This makes correct identification of the 8-element rather more difficult of course, as now it all depends on either yellowing or the shape of the rear element.


thank's Luis

if there is yellowing it must be a 7 element, that's sure, thank you again Peter Spotmatic!

Earlier I had written that I doubt that the rear lens of the 8 element really is more convex than that of the 7 element, that it may only appear so because of the different housing. I must correct myself again and would say that it actually 'is' a bit more convex but that it is very hard to tell.
More importantly, so far I have not heard of any 7 element that did not have the protective housing of the rear element resp. of an 8 element that did have it, so the rear lens of the 8 element being exposed still counts as a valid criteria for distinction.

A weight difference also has been mentioned for distinction. Well, that did not help me, I do not have a precise scale, but an old balance tells me that the hybrid is the lightest and the 8 element the heaviest of the three with the 7 element about in the middle ( though according to Pentaxforums the 8 element is lighter than the 7 element )


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The weight can be the ultimate test for all 8 elements, including the hybrid?
If I'm not mistaken, I think they are exactly 245 grams.

Regards.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anktonio wrote:
The weight can be the ultimate test for all 8 elements, including the hybrid?
If I'm not mistaken, I think they are exactly 245 grams.

Regards.


according to the lens reviews at Pentaxforums the 8 element weighs 245 grms, the 7 element 250 grms.
I do not have any precise scale but a balance I used to find out which of two lenses is lighter resp. heavier and these finding contradict the above weight info:

my 2 (!) 8 element weigh almost exactly the same and are the heaviest, the 7 element is lighter and the hybrid is the lightest

( yeah, I just found that I have a second copy of the 8 element lens that I had forgot about Embarassed it definitely is an 8 element, all signs are there, the difference to the one shown here earlier is that the letters on the name ring are of an earlier, less bold looking type, serial number is earlier too, 1338555 )


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

luisalegria wrote:

I think you have certainly proven that this is a transitional type, and that it did come from the factory as it is....


yes, I believe that it is original and if so obviously there must be more 'hybrids' around.
A comment of someone to these photos on flickr confirms, quote:
"Yes, mine is the same, just taking a closer look at it. A and M instead of Auto/Manual, f/2 is marked on the aperture ring, BUT the IR focus mark is to the LEFT of the f/4 mark on the DOF markings, and the rear element is definitely identical to the hybrid or 7 element version, not the 8 element version Very Happy So there might be a few different variety of the hybrid lenses floating around as well. Serial number is quite high: 1835532 "

In short the A/M switch saying A/M instead of auto/man and f2 being written out instead of just having a dot, are, contrary to info here and there, no defining signs of an 8 element lens. Some 7 element lenses, most likely only early ones, carry those sign too. Mine additionally has the weird markings near the "4" which I consider to be an 'original error' of manufacture of an 'early 7 element' Wink


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread finally inspired me to get an 8-element Super-Takumar, the version with the old lettering style (so definitely 8 elements).

Damn, coming back to this forum is always an expensive exercise!

Seller's pic:



PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spotmatic wrote:
This thread finally inspired me to get an 8-element Super-Takumar, the version with the old lettering style (so definitely 8 elements).


wow, amazing the Spotmatic' hasn't owned an 8 element Super Tak yet!
congratulations Peter, I am very curious about how you will like it!

as mentioned I have another 8 element which also has the old lettering, it's serial number is 1338555, serial number of your's is much lower again! I am curious with which serial number they started, and when they became 'hybrids' and 7 element lenses. The 8 element presented before has serial 1585445, the number of the hybrid is 1591478 or just a bit higher.

here the 1338555:





Spotmatic wrote:
Damn, coming back to this forum is always an expensive exercise!

Laughing


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops Andreas, I now also see that the one I bought indeed bears a very low serial number. In fact it's even lower than the lowest number in the Pentaxforums serial number database.

Anyway, it's a great lens to look forward to. I always wanted one but never specifically searched for it.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, I had not know that Pentax serial number data base!
hm..some lenses which sound like 'genuine' 8 elements have a higher serial number than my 'hybrid'

I think you will like it! But I won't tell me opinion now, I wait for your's Wink


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You must update your avatar now away from the 7 element to the Hybrid Razz


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I shall not tell my opinion till yours, Spotmatic.

In some brands, the discussion about which is tghe best, newer or older lenses, is always present. Not matter the time, the question is alive for ever.

LEICA m vs LTM, older M vs. newer ones, nikkor rangefinder vs NIKON f's vs autofocus, etc.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tromboads wrote:
You must update your avatar now away from the 7 element to the Hybrid Razz


my avatar actually shows a S-M-C, it's body is identical to that of the 7 element Super Tak, and I don't see any reason to update Wink


PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your SMC has those thin bands? Mine has those glorious 80's chunky ones!

Oh no you have discovered a further transitional unit Razz

Come to think of it, mine has f2 marked as well Laughing


PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kuuan wrote:

according to the lens reviews at Pentaxforums the 8 element weighs 245 grms, the 7 element 250 grms.


Yes, somewhere in Pentaxforums I've read that weight of 250 grams for the later version of 8 elements. But according to my information there to wait for the fifth edition (1975) to reach 250 grams, and all three versions later than 8 elements (1967-1972), weighing 230 grams.

http://www.aohc.it/tak03e.htm

Regards.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This serial number correspond to a V2 lens : http://kajiwara.weebly.com/index-et-prix-des-takumar.html


PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tromboads wrote:
Your SMC has those thin bands? Mine has those glorious 80's chunky ones!

Oh no you have discovered a further transitional unit Razz

Come to think of it, mine has f2 marked as well Laughing


Oh sorry, you had been absolutely right!!! My avatar DOES show the 7 element Super Takumar, not the S-M-C!

Both my copies of the "S-M-C" and my "SMC" have "2" written on the aperture ring too, looks as if it is only the 7 element Super Takumar that has the dot instead of the "2".

What do you mean by "chunky bands"? I suppose that you refer to the rubberized focus ring and aperture ring of the SMC, your's is the SMC, right? The SMC is the last version in M42, has "SMC" written on the name ring and a rubberized focus ring, 'chunky' rings.
I had been referring to the S-M-C, S-M-C usually refers to the first version with multi coating that has "Super Multi Coating" written out on the name ring and the same full metal body as the 7 element Super Takumar. Well, same body besides, as I just found out, that the 7 ele. Super Takumar has a dot and the S-M-C "2" written on the aperture ring Wink

..soon I might update my avatar Wink


PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CarbonR wrote:
This serial number correspond to a V2 lens : http://kajiwara.weebly.com/index-et-prix-des-takumar.html


right, the 'hybrid', as I found out, definitely is a v.2!
what a great site you have! The serial number information says that the V1 is up to serial number 1581354, however the first 8 element I presented here has the higher serial number 1585445 and the cemented triplet, definitely is a V1.
Your site also says that the 8 element has 7 groups, correct is 6 groups. ( the site linked by anktonio got that wrong too )


Last edited by kuuan on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anktonio wrote:
kuuan wrote:

according to the lens reviews at Pentaxforums the 8 element weighs 245 grms, the 7 element 250 grms.


Yes, somewhere in Pentaxforums I've read that weight of 250 grams for the later version of 8 elements. But according to my information there to wait for the fifth edition (1975) to reach 250 grams, and all three versions later than 8 elements (1967-1972), weighing 230 grams.

http://www.aohc.it/tak03e.htm

Regards.


thank you, that confirms my finding that the 8 element is heavier than the 7 element, Pentaxforums got that wrong. Curious that the 'hybrid' is lighter again.
5th edition? Is that the Pentax SMC, or Pentax K, in K mount? I thought that in M42 there are only 4 versions, the Super Tak 8 element, Super Tak 7 element, S-M-C and SMC. Since total I have 7 f1.4/50mm Takumars Embarassed I should try to get a good scale and weigh them all.

regards!


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like a nice 8-element for sale here, but now I'm not so sure! Smile
http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,1290728.html#1290728


PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally got my own copy of the 8-element version, in a near mint condition... Cool

(The lens itself shot with the 85mm f/4.5 Ultra-Achromatic Takumar and a sample with the Super-Takumar, wide open and a 100% crop).

Posted in this thread because it triggered me to finally get the lens...

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5.
Very Happy