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Focus shift MF lenses with X Pro1 ?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:09 am    Post subject: Focus shift MF lenses with X Pro1 ? Reply with quote
Hi folks, every one of my manual focus lenses exhibits this behavior on my X Pro1:

I focus using focus peaking
The subject looks perfect in the live view or EVF
When I press the shutter release, the object shifts slightly out of focus
On playback, the subject is out of focus

Alternatively, pressing the Command Dial zooms in to focus
Then I manually focus
It seems to be in better focus than using focus peaking

Settings used:
Focus Mode Selector is set to MF
Shoot without lens on
Focus mode is AF+MF (tried other settings with same behavior)
This also happens on my X Pro2

Lenses used (it happens on all of them):
CZJ Biotar 58 f/2
CZJ Sonnar 50 f/1.5 (Contax RF)
CZJ Tessar 5cm f/2 (Contax RF)
Primoplan 58
Trioplan 50
Trioplan 100

Here's a really, really bad video clip showing the focus shift with peaking Wink

https://goo.gl/wD34XZ

What am I doing wrong? Should I be using a different camera, like a Sony Full Fram A7?

Thanks in advance!


PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Use magnified view instead of peaking. That's how I roll.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, the support for manual focus lenses is quite differently implemented by various manufacturers and their cameras. There are better ones and not as good ones. Basically all these cameras are primarily designed for the use with original AF lenses and not typically for the manual lenses enthusiast.

However, to rely purely on focus peaking is by far too unprecise with nearly every camera. If your camera is supporting that mode, then you should use maximum magnification plus focus peaking simultaneously. That's very reliable.

If your camera doesn't support that, then you might consider to change your camera for another one with better manual lenses support if that is of importance to you.

My by far best camera for manual lenses is the Ricoh GXR-M APS-C as that's the only typical mirrorless one which has been developed exclusively for the use of manual lenses. There is no AF at all.

However, the Sony A7R II isn't bad as well as it at least supports 12.5 X magnification and focus peaking simultaneously, but not as nicely implemented like in the Ricoh where you can toggle between overall view and magnified view incl. focus peaking by pressing the shutter half way or releasing it again.

My older Panasonic Lumix MFT does't offer focus peaking at all (only magnification) and on my old Sony NEX with focus peaking it's also rather lousy and cumbersome implemented, at least in comparison.

That's it more or less!

Cheers,


PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
However, to rely purely on focus peaking is by far too unprecise with nearly every camera. If your camera is supporting that mode, then you should use maximum magnification plus focus peaking simultaneously. That's very reliable.

My by far best camera for manual lenses is the Ricoh GXR-M APS-C as that's the only typical mirrorless one which has been developed exclusively for the use of manual lenses. There is no AF at all.

However, the Sony A7R II isn't bad as well as it at least supports 12.5 X magnification and focus peaking simultaneously, but not as nicely implemented like in the Ricoh where you can toggle between overall view and magnified view incl. focus peaking by pressing the shutter half way or releasing it again.


Wow, great, comprehensive advice - someone should sticky all the best cameras with both peaking and magnification.

My X Pro1 does not support peaking + magnification.

I see the A7R II offers it; do you know if the old A7 has this feature?

blotafton wrote:
Use magnified view instead of peaking. That's how I roll.


Thanks so much!


PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
BTW, I found an interesting post on DPreview; unfortunately he doesn't confirm the A7 has focus peaking & magnification simultaneously; nevertheless, there's some things I was not aware of:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4141096

Quote:
SQLGuy • Veteran Member • Posts: 6,574
Re: Sony A7 and A7RII Manual Focus Magnification and Peaking?
In reply to haziz • Apr 9, 2017
AF won't even necessarily always be faster than MF. In tough conditions (low light, low contrast subject), AF may hunt a lot or not even lock. Regardless, AF can only go so far in figuring out what you want to focus on. If it's a relatively flat subject a good distance away, AF will do very well. If it's a point in a mix of points at varying distances, (like one flower in a bush), MF will do much better.

Native lenses are focus by wire - in other words, the focus ring sends a signal to the camera to adjust focus, and the camera sends a signal back to the lens motor to move the focus point. The default setting is that they will automatically activate focus magnification when the focus ring is turned in MF or DMF modes. The timeout for how long to stay magnified after the focus ring stops moving is configurable in the menu. I think the default is two seconds. You can also assign focus hold to a button, and hold this button to keep magnification active after the timeout.

Some adapters, for some lens designs, can also send a focus ring moving signal to the camera to allow this same MF/DMF behavior. Most cannot.

For purely manual lenses, the camera doesn't even really know that a lens is attached. In those cases, automatic magnification is clearly not possible. You must manually enter magnification.

The fastest method is probably focus-and-recompose: double-click the focus assist button to enter magnified view with the magnification point set where it last was (should be in the center for focus-and-recompose), aim the camera at your desired focus point, focus, half-press the shutter to exit magnification, compose your shot, and fire. More accurate, if you have the time to do it, is to compose first, then single-click the button, move the focus point to what you want to focus on (using the scroll wheels or the directional pad), click again to magnify, focus, then directly take your shot with a full press of the shutter release.

The delete button, by the way, is a quick way to move the magnification point back to center.

One annoying thing to be aware of is that exposure preview (assuming Setting Effect is On) will not update while in magnified view. The main impact of this is that if you change the aperture while in magnified view, the scene will get darker or brighter (maybe a lot / too much darker or brighter). The only option at that point is to exit and reenter magnified view - e.g. by double or triple clicking the focus assist button.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevesurf wrote:
My X Pro1 does not support peaking + magnification.


Well, that's bad luck for manual focusing as it get's really cumbersome without that feature and you need very good eyes and a very good EVF.

stevesurf wrote:
I see the A7R II offers it; do you know if the old A7 has this feature?


Unfortunately not. I never checked the features of the 24MP models as I already have a Sony 24MP FF DSLR. The freely available user manuals may help you further.

I am always studying the user manual before investing into any new camera to avoid troubles and frustration afterwards. Wink

However, I still strongly believe that for the time being the A7R II is the best somehow affordable camera to get if the usage of manual lenses is important to you. For people with deep pockets the A7R III may be even better. These models are equipped with a newer BSI-CMOS sensor without AA-filtering for highest sharpness and resolution and perform best with otherwise problematic rangefinder lenses (particularly the wide angles) which are known to make troubles at least on the A7 and A7 II (strange color cast and alike). I don't know whether the A7 III with also a new BSI-CMOS sensor but stil with AA-filter performs better in that respect.

Cheers,


PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevesurf wrote:
BTW, I found an interesting post on DPreview; unfortunately he doesn't confirm the A7 has focus peaking & magnification simultaneously; nevertheless, there's some things I was not aware of:


Well, I did know that already. Wink

As stated before, the best camera for manual focus lenses is still the Ricoh GXR-M. There you activate the focus assist functionality and toggle just by pressing the shutter halfway.
However, it's better to have it a little cumbersome as implemented in the Sony A7R II than to have nothing comparable. The Sony was never intended for the usage of manual lenses. They want to sell their own AF lenses like all others as well.
Anyway with a little practicing you get used to it and correct focusing will be managable rather quickly on the Sony as well.
Furthermore you might also look for the Techart PRO adapter which enables AF with virtually every manual focus lens as long as it is adaptable to Leica-M mount. I really love that feature.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My experience on Fuji X-T1 is that the peaking shows more in focus that actually is. Therefore I use magnified view only.

For me, the best system for manual focus lenses, and built from the ground up for manual focusing, is the Leica-M range. Unfortunately, even used bodies are still pretty expensive, but so are many other camera's (such as many sony's, e.g. A7S, A9, A7rII, top end DSLRs, etc) There's also plenty of really good and affordable camera's out there.

Personally, I would consider a good EVF and good handling/ergonomics more important than the peaking feature. Everybody's preferences are different in this regard. I would recommend you check some camera's in a store to get an idea of these things. Many camera-stores also have a range of used equipment.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sjak has it, the dof of peaking focus of camera is greater than dof of lens. You may get better results turning focus ring from infinity to closer than turning from closer to infinity, or, vice versa.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
Sjak has it, the dof of peaking focus of camera is greater than dof of lens.
A while ago, for fun I tried the peaking again. I could even get peaking highlights on bokeh-balls from one of my Jupiter-lenses Laughing

visualopsins wrote:
You may get better results turning focus ring from infinity to closer than turning from closer to infinity, or, vice versa.
This is a really good advice. Getting a consistent technique is important. And practice really helps.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sjak wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
Sjak has it, the dof of peaking focus of camera is greater than dof of lens.
A while ago, for fun I tried the peaking again. I could even get peaking highlights on bokeh-balls from one of my Jupiter-lenses Laughing

visualopsins wrote:
You may get better results turning focus ring from infinity to closer than turning from closer to infinity, or, vice versa.
This is a really good advice. Getting a consistent technique is important. And practice really helps.


Really great advice, thanks!

BTW, I finally figured out how to magnify-focus with the X Pro1 and it even seems I can use peaking with the magnification. You are all right - Focus Peaking has too little precision without magnification!

All of a sudden, I'm taking somewhat sharper images Wink

https://tinyurl.com/y7lx4w9o
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