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F16SUNSHINE
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 2240
Location: Anacortes Washington
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 Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Exactly, you are using a smaller part, so to cover the same frame you need to enlarge higher and thus camera shake gets visible easier. That's the reason why you should calculate with the "effective" 35mm equivalent. |
I think this is the most confusing thing for people in regards to crop cams. Here is the simplest way to put it. Magnification does not change no matter the sensor or film size. For a visual here is an example. Think of it as "reach". If you have two ladders that are 2 meters tall. One could be half a meter wide the other 3/4 of a meter wide (fat guy and skinny guy ladders  ). They both still reach 2 meters. So a 50mm has the same magnification or "reach" regardless of the sensor it is covering. Therefore camera shake is not more sensitive for a smaller sensor or less for a larger one for a given focal length.
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Current Kit
Canon 5D, 40D
Contax 4/18, 1.4/50, 1.4/85, 2.8/85, 2/100, 3.5/100, 2.8/180, Rollei HFT 1.4/35, 1.4/85, Zuiko 2/21, 2/24, 2/28, 2/35, 2/80, Yashica ML 3.5/21, 2.8/24, Helios 40 protype, Trioplan 2.8/100, Tair 11A,
Epson R D1(s), Bessa L, Bessa R2m, Leica CL, CV 4.5/15, 4/25, 1.4/40, Zeiss ZM 2/35, Yashinon1.8/50, CLE 4/90, Zeiss Opton 4/135 T, Electro GT, Electro GX, Electro CC |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 11793
Location: West Emilia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| F16SUNSHINE wrote: | | Therefore camera shake is not more sensitive for a smaller sensor or less for a larger one for a given focal length. |
So, I have right ?
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ХОРИОС-61 ( ώρεος ) : Lens sana in corpore sano
Main Tools:
LENSES: Carl Zeiss, Leitz, Soviet, old Nikkors, others.
DSLR: Canon EOS 5D, 50D. SLR: Contax AX, RX, 167MT; Voigtländer Bessaflex TM; Praktica FX2; Nikon FM2, F70.
RANGEFINDERS: Contax G2, Kiev-4, Voigtlaender Bessa-T, Canonette QL17. MEDIUM FORMAT: Pentacon 6, Zeiss Super Ikonta, Agfa Record II.
Read Full List HERE
www.timelessphotography.eu
www.oriofoto.net
"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. " (George Orwell)
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 7222
Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| LucisPictor wrote: | | ... you need to enlarge higher and thus camera shake gets visible easier... |
What I mean with that is that you need to enlarge the "negative" more often to get a "print" of a certain size.
In the same way, the medium size plays a role for sharpness (circle of confusion), it plays a role for the prevention of camera shake.
That's how I have learned it:
Visible camera shake means that sharpness is reduced (of course!).
If you want to get, say, a 20x30cm print from a sensor sized 24x36mm, you need to "enlarge" the picture by about 8 times.
If you crop out the central part of the 24x36mm frame (which is done by a "crop sensor") you need to enlarge by about 13 times to get a 20x30cm print.
Thus camera shake (or any other lack of sharpness) also is "enlarged" 13 times (instead of 8 times) and ergo easier visible.
Where is the mistake in my thoughts?
Anyway, if you calculate with a minimum shutter speed of 1/(focal length * 1.6), you are on the safe side.
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There are two kinds of people in the world: those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don’t.
"Schnäppchenjäger" | "KAPCTEH" | "Karusutenu" | "Carsten" | T-shirt?
Cams in use: EOS 40D, EOS 350D, EOS500, Spotmatic SPII, Yashica-24, EXA I & 1c, Zenit EM; Oly 35RC,Minolta Hi-Matic E & F, Ricoh 500RF, Yashica Electro 35 GS, FED-3b and some others...
Lenses in use: Asahi Pentax: 2.8/28;3.5/35;1.4/50;1.7/50;2.8/105;28-80 | Canon (AF):1.8/50;17-85;75-300 | Former GDR: Pentacon 3.5/30; Pentaflex 1.8/50; CZJ 2.8/50; CZJ 4/135; Pentacon 4/200 | Fujinon: 43-75 | Hanimex: 3.5/23; 4/100;80-200 | Hoya: 25-42;80-205 | Kiron: 2/28;70-210 | Leica: Elmarit-R 2.8/35 | Mamiya: 1.8/55 | Minolta: 1.7/50 | Nikkor: 2.8/24;2/35;2/50;1.2/55;1.8/85;3.5/135 | West German: Ludwig 2.9/50; Meyer 2.8/100; Will 4.5/105; Schneider 3.5/135;Enna 3.5/135; Zeiss 4/135;Isco 4/135; Enna 4.5/240 | Olympus: 3.5/28;1.4/50;3.5/135 | Rikenon: 1.7/50;35-70 | Rollei/Voigtländer: 1.4/55;1.8/50 | Russian: Peleng3.5/8; Zenitar2.8/16; MIR2.8/37; Volna2.8/50; Industar3.5/50; Industar3.5/5cm; Helios2/50; Helios2/58; Volna2.8/80; Jupiter2/85; Kaleinar2.8/100;Tair2.8/135; Jupiter3.5/135; Jupiter4/135; Telear3.5/200; Jupiter4/200; Tair4.5/300;RF: Jupiter2.8/35;Industar2.8/53 | Sigma: 28-85;28-105(AF);17-70(AF) | Soligor: 28-105;35-200;70-220 | Tamron: 2.5/24;2.5/135;2.8/135;60-300;70-210 | Tokina: 28-105;80-200;12-24(AF);70-210(AF) | Vivitar: 3.5/17;2/24;2/28;2.5/28;2.8/28 | Yashica: 1.7/50;2/5cm | Other Japanese: Cosina3.8/20; Petri2.8/28; Albinar2.8/28; Porst1.8/35; 2.8/135; Weltblick3.5/135; Beroflex 8/500; Spiratone28-200; Maginon70-210
Green are the lenses I shoot the most.
More? http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65
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lulalake
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 511
Location: Near Austin Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:08 pm Post subject: Turn Around |
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A technique that I always use on almost every shot. It was told to me by an old photo mentor many years ago. It's very simple and should be done by everyone shooting anytime.
Whenever you're shooting, almost anything, almost anytime, turn around and look at whats behind and at your side. You may, and many times will, find an absolutely astounding shot.
Jules
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Heisenberg may have slept here. |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 11793
Location: West Emilia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: Re: Turn Around |
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| lulalake wrote: | A technique that I always use on almost every shot. It was told to me by an old photo mentor many years ago. It's very simple and should be done by everyone shooting anytime.
Whenever you're shooting, almost anything, almost anytime, turn around and look at whats behind and at your side. You may, and many times will, find an absolutely astounding shot.
Jules |
This is one of the best advices ever for a street photographer.
I do this, but, not enough, and sometimes I am captured by the action and forget the surroundings.
It really takes a lot of discipline to keep this control all the time.
But practising it will improve - hopefully 
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ХОРИОС-61 ( ώρεος ) : Lens sana in corpore sano
Main Tools:
LENSES: Carl Zeiss, Leitz, Soviet, old Nikkors, others.
DSLR: Canon EOS 5D, 50D. SLR: Contax AX, RX, 167MT; Voigtländer Bessaflex TM; Praktica FX2; Nikon FM2, F70.
RANGEFINDERS: Contax G2, Kiev-4, Voigtlaender Bessa-T, Canonette QL17. MEDIUM FORMAT: Pentacon 6, Zeiss Super Ikonta, Agfa Record II.
Read Full List HERE
www.timelessphotography.eu
www.oriofoto.net
"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. " (George Orwell)
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lulalake
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 511
Location: Near Austin Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Turn Around |
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| Orio wrote: | | lulalake wrote: | A technique that I always use on almost every shot. It was told to me by an old photo mentor many years ago. It's very simple and should be done by everyone shooting anytime.
Whenever you're shooting, almost anything, almost anytime, turn around and look at whats behind and at your side. You may, and many times will, find an absolutely astounding shot.
Jules |
This is one of the best advices ever for a street photographer.
I do this, but, not enough, and sometimes I am captured by the action and forget the surroundings.
It really takes a lot of discipline to keep this control all the time.
But practising it will improve - hopefully |
Yes, that advice has served me well. One more . .
Tonight, say to your wife or girl or boyfriend, (very seriously) "Baby, something's different about you. Are you losing weight or something?"
Guaranteed to make points!
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Heisenberg may have slept here. |
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F16SUNSHINE
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 2240
Location: Anacortes Washington
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Where is the mistake in my thoughts?
Anyway, if you calculate with a minimum shutter speed of 1/(focal length * 1.6), you are on the safe side. Wink |
Carsten
There is no mistake in your thought. This is absolutely on the safe side. |
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Rob Leslie
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 667
Location: UK Swindon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: |
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I am not convinced the written word can ever help a beginner or a mediocre experienced user good basics. The tripod is a great example.
Every good book, many forum posts and loads of magazine articles will stress a good Tripod is a more essential bit of kit than another new lens yet how many bother.
I see more bird watchers carrying quality tripods than I do photographers?
My Photo basic tip is to join a club
Being in a club is the ONLY way to get honest feed back on your work and to compare your own standards with better photographers.
Also everybody with a real interest should do courses.
The essential first is the Adobe approved Photoshop Basics course which is run by virtually every College in the UK.
Also in the UK consider the very easy but good City and Guilds Photography course
Both of these can be taken as Night school course and take up just a few hours a week.
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Pentax K10D & K100D. Many Tamron Adaptall SP lenses, Fujinon f4.5 400mm. A loved Lens Baby 2, Lubitel triplet +++ and many many film cameras. Mainly a Digital user.
http://roblesliephotography.blogspot.com |
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Rob Leslie
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 667
Location: UK Swindon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| LucisPictor wrote: | | Orio wrote: | | Bruce wrote: | be sure to consider crop factor when determining tripod use with your focal length and shutter speeds in use. A 50mm Zeiss is going to need an 80ish shutter speed before you can go handheld with it on your Canon [digital].
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I don't think so, because you are still using a 50mm lens. You are just recording a smaller part of it. |
Exactly, you are using a smaller part, so to cover the same frame you need to enlarge higher and thus camera shake gets visible easier. That's the reason why you should calculate with the "effective" 35mm equivalent. |
As usual a very good and insightful discussion.
The answer is of course to test the theory.
Take an ordinary PS digital and set it to the equivalent of a 35mm 50mm lens FOV which should be around 10/12mm. Set your shutter to 1/15th and see how many shake free shots you get.
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Pentax K10D & K100D. Many Tamron Adaptall SP lenses, Fujinon f4.5 400mm. A loved Lens Baby 2, Lubitel triplet +++ and many many film cameras. Mainly a Digital user.
http://roblesliephotography.blogspot.com |
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