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Enlarger lenses on a DSLR
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:14 am    Post subject: Enlarger lenses on a DSLR Reply with quote
OK, so I've been wanting a decent macro lens for a while now and the prospect of shelling out £300 for a modern AF 100mm macro with 1:1 doesn't quite appeal to me (especially since that's money I don't have Very Happy) but neither does the prospect of a less-than 1:1 solution (read: every vintage macro lens in the roughly 100mm focal length that doesn't cost as much as/more than its modern counterpart). After a little reading I stumbled upon the prospect of using enlarger lenses on short flange focal distance cameras with a helicoid, being able to achieve not only 1:1 (or close to, depending on the lens in question) but also infinity simultaneously. The sharpness was extremely impressive to my eyes, and distortion, as to be expected, is non-existent because of the flat focal plane. Now, I'd like to ideally achieve infinity focus as well as close focus, and maybe a mount on bellows for 1:1 and higher, and from what I've been reading it's possible, even on a DSLR as I'll be using it, in my case a Canon 400D. Here's what I don't understand - how is it possible, what lenses would it be possible with and what kind of mounting would I need? Also any advice with regards to particular lenses to look out for would be much appreciated Smile

Thanks in advanced!


PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Funny that very similar is in discussion here: http://forum.mflenses.com/list-of-native-11-macro-lenses-t67599.html
So a quite good macro lens maqy be had for little.

If you do want an enlarger lens + focusing helicoid, it may be even more pricier than that... Wink


PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Enlarging lenses can work extremely well as macro lenses. Conventional wisdom says you need to reverse them but in practice this is rarely the case, so you don't need to worry so much about difficult to find adapters. I have written quite a lot on this subject, published mostly in coin collecting forums as my genre of choice is numismatic photography. I have an ongoing thread identifying "EL-Cheapo" lenses that can be applied for this purpose, with my main criteria that they be <US$30 on eBay Buy it Now listings. Many of these lenses are "sleepers" and can provide near world-class performance in the 1:4...1:1 range, and great performance in the 1:1...3:1 range using bellows. I emphasize and encourage use of lenses in the 75mm...105mm range to maximize the magnification range achievable on bellows. Shorter than 75mm limits use to the deep macro range (because of the minimum extension of the bellows) and longer than 105mm limits maximum magnification (because of the limited maximum extension of the bellows).

A huge advantage to the bellows system is flexibility of lens choice and optimum mag ranges. Since the lenses are cheap in comparison to dedicated macros of any type, you can mix and match for best effect. Use a 105mm for lower magnifications, a 75mm for middle ranges, and a 50mm for higher mags. Add a 4x or 5x and a 10x microscope objective for full-performance high-magnification imaging. All these together, plus the bellows, will cost you less than a typical dedicated macro lens!

If you peruse my threads and posts over on Coin Community Forum's Coin Photography sub-forum (I am rmpsrpms), you will find the El-Cheapo thread and a lot of others with information on how to set up and use these systems. To help with your immediate requirements, I can suggest a couple of things:

A Nikon 75/4 EL-Nikkor makes an excellent starter macro lens and can be had for ~US$40.

I highly recommend using M42 as your "intermediate" mount. It is easy and cheap to adapt any camera and (most) any enlarging or duplicating lens to M42.

For bellows, the Vivitar Triple Track in M42 is excellent and can be had for ~US$40.

M42 Adapters for camera and lens can be had for ~US$20 for both

If you want to start even cheaper, you can go with a 75/3.5 EL-Omegar, Vivitar LU, or several others that are quite decent starter lenses that can be had for ~US$20.

Ray


PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well put Ray, as always!. Personally I'm not really a big fan of the 75mm, rather prefer the 80mm (and 105mm) EL-Nikkor version.


PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Well put Ray, as always!. Personally I'm not really a big fan of the 75mm, rather prefer the 80mm (and 105mm) EL-Nikkor version.


I like the 75mm as it is f/4 and can get a little higher resolution and sharpness at medium mags. The 80mm and 105mm are both f/5.6 so are limited to lower mags.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ray, have you ver tested the Leitz FOCOTAR-2 4.5/50mm, EL-Nikkor 2.8/50mm and Komuranon 3.5/50mm?
http://forum.mflenses.com/eucharis-amazon-lily-f50mm-enlarger-lens-test-5and1-t55118.html


PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Ray, have you ver tested the Leitz FOCOTAR-2 4.5/50mm, EL-Nikkor 2.8/50mm and Komuranon 3.5/50mm?
http://forum.mflenses.com/eucharis-amazon-lily-f50mm-enlarger-lens-test-5and1-t55118.html


I've tested the Nikon 50/2.8, as it is pretty much the worldwide reference for these applications due to its high quality and availability. It's of course not the best but gives a good starting point. I have not tried any of the Focotars. I don't think Leitz ever made a 75mm. You list a 95mm in MLDB and I've seen 60mm and 100mm versions online. 60mm is still a bit too short for bellows (for my application) though I might try a 100mm some day. I have a Komuranon 75mm but have not tested it against my other 75mm.

The problem for me is that 50mm enlarger lenses offer limited magnification range when used on bellows. Most of the cameras we use have register distances of around 45mm (plus or minus) and typical bellows have minimum extensions of 40mm (plus or minus) so the minimum extension (from sensor plane) is typically 95mm. Mounting a 50mm lens will thus produce a minimum magnification of around 0.9:1, too high for my coin photography application where I need to image coins up to 38mm diameter (US Dollar) and thus need a magnification of around 0.39 or less on APS-C or 0.6 on FF sensor. This is why most of my efforts have been toward 75mm lenses as they can achieve around 0.3:1 up to 2:1 on a typical bellows.

Here is a "shootout" I did early in my lens selection days that shows the differences between a big group of 75mm lenses. This was before I moved to Canon with their EFSC, so the camera shutter shake is somewhat obscuring the subtle differences between the better lenses.

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=98494&SearchTerms=75mm


PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I just found a Rodenstock-Eurygon 4/35 I completely forgot I had, it is threaded to fit the front of a Copal/Compur #1 shutter. I think it's from a Polaroid camera.

35mm seems a bit short for macro to me, is this actually a macro lens?

What is the advantage of a 35mm lens as opposed to the longer 75mm and 127mm ones I usually use for macro work?


PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I just found a Rodenstock-Eurygon 4/35 I completely forgot I had, it is threaded to fit the front of a Copal/Compur #1 shutter. I think it's from a Polaroid camera.

35mm seems a bit short for macro to me, is this actually a macro lens?

What is the advantage of a 35mm lens as opposed to the longer 75mm and 127mm ones I usually use for macro work?


The Eurygon 35/4 is indeed a true macro lens and was part of the Polaroid MP4 system. Tomioka also provided the Tominon 35/4 for this system. I have never done a head-head comparison with the two. Shorter lenses can go to higher magnifications with the same bellows extension, so this is the advantage they have. With a typical bellows and camera, the 127mm can go to ~0.8:1; the 75mm to ~2:1; and the 35mm to ~5:1.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cheers Ray. I also have the Tominon 4.5/135 from the MP4, never tried either lens due to the fitting, I have M39 and M42 bellows and no adapter to fit these, although I could bodge it with gaffer tape.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Cheers Ray. I also have the Tominon 4.5/135 from the MP4, never tried either lens due to the fitting, I have M39 and M42 bellows and no adapter to fit these, although I could bodge it with gaffer tape.


The MP4 system has M40 threads. I think this is same as Copal-0. You can get an adapter to M42 from jinfinance on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mitutoyo-BD-Plan-M40-0-75-microscope-M42-Adapter-flat-/200619746279?pt=US_Lens_Adapters_Mounts_Tubes&hash=item2eb5de63e7


PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Cheers Ray. I also have the Tominon 4.5/135 from the MP4, never tried either lens due to the fitting, I have M39 and M42 bellows and no adapter to fit these, although I could bodge it with gaffer tape.


The MP4 system has M40 threads. I think this is same as Copal-0. You can get an adapter to M42 from jinfinance on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mitutoyo-BD-Plan-M40-0-75-microscope-M42-Adapter-flat-/200619746279?pt=US_Lens_Adapters_Mounts_Tubes&hash=item2eb5de63e7

Yes. I have the same adapter and two Eurygon 35/4.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks Ray, do try the Focotar II 100mm if you ever are able to lay your hands on one (has gotten quite pricey), a fantastic sharp lens. Haven't really tried it for macro, but have a look here if you like: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/sets/72157635953058455/. There are a few closeups (white cat for instance), that give an idea what it is able to deliver....

About the 50mm, indeed there is an issue with that focal length, hence why I have developed a "sunken" mount for it, using a larger focusing helicoid which even allows for infinity on a Nikon DSLR.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Thanks Ray, do try the Focotar II 100mm if you ever are able to lay your hands on one (has gotten quite pricey), a fantastic sharp lens. Haven't really tried it for macro, but have a look here if you like: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/sets/72157635953058455/. There are a few closeups (white cat for instance), that give an idea what it is able to deliver....

About the 50mm, indeed there is an issue with that focal length, hence why I have developed a "sunken" mount for it, using a larger focusing helicoid which even allows for infinity on a Nikon DSLR.


Well, the Focotar II 100mm is f5.6, so use in high resolution macro applications will be limited to around 1:2. The lenses listed on eBay are $1000-$1400. This is getting into the 105/2.8 Printing-Nikkor territory...


PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Ray,

I have some very old SK enlarging lenses with fine threads, Looking at them I would say they are M25x0.5 thread.

It would be nice to get them up to M39 or M42, but I cant seem to find adapters. Have you come across a solution for these?


PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Extremely easy way to get small lenses on m42.
Plastic m42 body caps.
Drill a hole just under the width of your thread.
You should be able to screw your lens into the soft plastic.
You may have to do a bit of trial and error fitting with a file (to adjust the size of the hole in the plastic).
If done right it is very firm and secure.
I've done it with a dozen lenses or so.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Saludos Amigo!

This is a very good solution Wink


PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
Extremely easy way to get small lenses on m42.
Plastic m42 body caps.
Drill a hole just under the width of your thread.
You should be able to screw your lens into the soft plastic.
You may have to do a bit of trial and error fitting with a file (to adjust the size of the hole in the plastic).
If done right it is very firm and secure.
I've done it with a dozen lenses or so.


I do the same than use hot glue to hold it in properly. It will come off easily enough if you pull it hard.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnBar wrote:
Hi Ray,

I have some very old SK enlarging lenses with fine threads, Looking at them I would say they are M25x0.5 thread.

It would be nice to get them up to M39 or M42, but I cant seem to find adapters. Have you come across a solution for these?


I'm not Ray, but I know where to find such adapters: Click here to see on Ebay or here from
SRB Griturn in the UK http://srb-photographic.co.uk/m39-to-m25-schneider-adaptor-6130-p.asp
Schneider also has them as part # 92-056001 as "00" to LTM (M25x0.5 is a standard "00" shutter mount)

I'm an engineer, I have to do things the "right way" Wink


PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
JohnBar wrote:
Hi Ray,

I have some very old SK enlarging lenses with fine threads, Looking at them I would say they are M25x0.5 thread.

It would be nice to get them up to M39 or M42, but I cant seem to find adapters. Have you come across a solution for these?


I'm not Ray, but I know where to find such adapters: Click here to see on Ebay or here from
SRB Griturn in the UK http://srb-photographic.co.uk/m39-to-m25-schneider-adaptor-6130-p.asp
Schneider also has them as part # 92-056001 as "00" to LTM (M25x0.5 is a standard "00" shutter mount)

I'm an engineer, I have to do things the "right way" Wink

I can buy half a dozen in China for the price listed in Ebay. The adapter is also available for '0' shutter with M32x0.5 thread.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnBar wrote:
Hi Ray,

I have some very old SK enlarging lenses with fine threads, Looking at them I would say they are M25x0.5 thread.

It would be nice to get them up to M39 or M42, but I cant seem to find adapters. Have you come across a solution for these?


I have a Componon with that size thread but have not successfully adapted it to M39 or M42. I figure there must be a solution out there but so far I have not found one.

Hah, I see that when I replied I missed almost whole page of earlier replies giving solutions! Hate it when that happens.

Last edited by Ray Parkhurst on Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
JohnBar wrote:
Hi Ray,

I have some very old SK enlarging lenses with fine threads, Looking at them I would say they are M25x0.5 thread.

It would be nice to get them up to M39 or M42, but I cant seem to find adapters. Have you come across a solution for these?


I have a Componon with that size thread but have not successfully adapted it to M39 or M42. I figure there must be a solution out there but so far I have not found one.


It is mentioned in the adapter thread on the coin community site Ray (??)


PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
JohnBar wrote:
Hi Ray,

I have some very old SK enlarging lenses with fine threads, Looking at them I would say they are M25x0.5 thread.

It would be nice to get them up to M39 or M42, but I cant seem to find adapters. Have you come across a solution for these?


I have a Componon with that size thread but have not successfully adapted it to M39 or M42. I figure there must be a solution out there but so far I have not found one.


It is mentioned in the adapter thread on the coin community site Ray (??)


Klaus...can you attach a link? I don't remember that thread...Ray


PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:


I'm an engineer, I have to do things the "right way" Wink


Thanks Klaus,

I am aeronautical engineer and so fully conversant in rocket science Smile

but I learnt the 4th F is the most important one. Wink


PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:

I can buy half a dozen in China for the price listed in Ebay. The adapter is also available for '0' shutter with M32x0.5 thread.



Calvin, you must reveal the secret source Wink
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