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Developing multiple films
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Developing multiple films Reply with quote
[quote="alaios"]
Hi,
great answer. I appreciate the time spent
see inline for specific comment

Hi Alex!
When I developed film, especially with a new film developer, I always did tests. I would shoot a short roll of film (bulk loaded with 8-12 frames) at the normal camera setting and also half and one stop overexposed and half and one stop underexposed, 5 frames in total. Following the recommended time and temperature, I developed this roll normally, using standard agitation and fixing times, etc. You need an accurate dial thermometer, one that works by expansion and contraction internally and allows you to see the solution temperature immediately. The thermometer is most important as you're developing the film by the "Time and Temperature" technique. If the solution is several degrees high or low but the thermometer reads "68 degrees" for example, you will get incorrect development which leads to lack of good tonal ranges and an increase in film grain.

alaios wrote:

My developed films look okayish.. I have not developed many and thus I am not sure if I did something wrong. Some of them look overexposed but I am not sure it was my metering technique wrong or my development process. Regarding the temperature control this is something I really have problems with.... I am throwing my thermometer in my liquid but sometimes it says 24 centigrades other times says 20..... So far I have been relying in the fact that black and white film is "robust"... I am having trouble measuring the temperature and bringing my liquids at the same temperature...


I suggested a water "stop bath." If you pour in fixer directly after the developer has run out, the fixer will be exhausted sooner and fewer rolls fixed, maybe 18-20 instead of 25. The water basically washes away residual developer on the film surfaces and prepares it for the fixer.

alaios wrote:

Hi, I think I was pouring in my fixer directly after my developer was out of the tank. I am using the fixer of ilford but I am not sure of its type. I will have to check that.
I did not use water close to my developers temperature. I was using tap water and I guess it can be even 10 centigrades lower.... I did not use awetting agent.. I just some drops of kitchen detergent at the last rinse... Btw still fillling 20 times 640ml for rinsing is still a waste of water Sad I wish there was a magic liquid that you pour inside the tank and that is all ..


You must maintain the temperature of all the solutions as well as the wash water as closely as possible to get optimum results. When the developer is poured in, the film emulsion swells to react with the developer. By keeping all solutions within several degrees of each other the film will not swell and contract (if stop is much colder than developer) and swell again in the fixer if it's much warmer. When washing you wish to avoid too much of a difference in temperature as well. Too many extreme temperatures and swelling and the contracting of the film could lead to reticulation and coarse grain. There use to be a washing aide called "Permawash" which decreased washing time; other similar products exist: Ilford's version and Kodak's Hypo Clearing Agent (powder). Just be sure your detergent is not too strong or you'll get white spots or rings on the film. Your wash water is much too cold! You can probably use the wash water from the fill and dump technique from around the eighth cycle and higher as "grey water," not for drinking but for utilitarian purposes.

Best of luck and keep practicing! Ed


PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks so let me summarize:

1. Pouring water just after the developer allows me to keep my fixer for longer period! Good tip and easily usable. Still though I do not "understand" what is a good quality fixer. In other terms how long I can keep the liquid

2. I need a better thermometer then.. Check.. can you give me some ebay link... I would need something that has a contracted element quite long enough that can go inside my cylinders that I use for measuring my liquids

3. Any tips on how to keep liquids at the same temperature? I keep my liquids in our storage box that gets no heating. I guess that the temperature would be like 2-4 centigrades below the rest of the house.. that typically is around 20 centigrades. How I also make sure that the liquids remain at the same temperature?

4. Even harder how to find so much water at the same temperature??? That is a lot.. I do not want to think how many bottles I need to keep water that would remain at an X temperature

5. Last one after having my films to dry I cut them into pieces of 5 frames, to make sure they get easily inside my film transparent holders... One comment though is the surface has still a lot of curvature... which unfortunately means that I have then problem putting my film 5-frame pieces into my scanner (film holder) for scanning.. Any tips on that?

I would like to thank you for your reply
Regards
Alex


PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
alaios wrote:
Thanks so let me summarize:

1. Pouring water just after the developer allows me to keep my fixer for longer period! Good tip and easily usable. Still though I do not "understand" what is a good quality fixer. In other terms how long I can keep the liquid

2. I need a better thermometer then.. Check.. can you give me some ebay link... I would need something that has a contracted element quite long enough that can go inside my cylinders that I use for measuring my liquids

3. Any tips on how to keep liquids at the same temperature? I keep my liquids in our storage box that gets no heating. I guess that the temperature would be like 2-4 centigrades below the rest of the house.. that typically is around 20 centigrades. How I also make sure that the liquids remain at the same temperature?

4. Even harder how to find so much water at the same temperature??? That is a lot.. I do not want to think how many bottles I need to keep water that would remain at an X temperature

5. Last one after having my films to dry I cut them into pieces of 5 frames, to make sure they get easily inside my film transparent holders... One comment though is the surface has still a lot of curvature... which unfortunately means that I have then problem putting my film 5-frame pieces into my scanner (film holder) for scanning.. Any tips on that?

I would like to thank you for your reply
Regards
Alex


1. All branded fixer is good quality. Dont overuse it. If it gets too discoloured throw it away.

2. Use a mercury/alcohol thermometer, the sensor (i.e. the bulb of liquid is small)

3 /4. Put your bottles of chemicals in a bowl of warm tap water about 24 degrees. The warm water will cool and bring the bottles up to the temp you want. Or bring the bottles into the living room a couple of hours before use. To quickly bring the bottles up to temp. I use a wide jug or bowl, big enough for the bottle of developer, put hot water from the kettle into it and dip the dev bottle into it for a couple of minutes. agitate the bottle and measure. half a degree isnt going to kill it as I've said on numerous occasions. The fixer temp isnt critical at all 4 or 5 degrees either way wont matter a bit

5. Left longer to dry the curvature will reduce. I have mentioned this more than once.


PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
philslizzy wrote:
alaios wrote:
Thanks so let me summarize:

1. Pouring water just after the developer allows me to keep my fixer for longer period! Good tip and easily usable. Still though I do not "understand" what is a good quality fixer. In other terms how long I can keep the liquid

2. I need a better thermometer then.. Check.. can you give me some ebay link... I would need something that has a contracted element quite long enough that can go inside my cylinders that I use for measuring my liquids

3. Any tips on how to keep liquids at the same temperature? I keep my liquids in our storage box that gets no heating. I guess that the temperature would be like 2-4 centigrades below the rest of the house.. that typically is around 20 centigrades. How I also make sure that the liquids remain at the same temperature?

4. Even harder how to find so much water at the same temperature??? That is a lot.. I do not want to think how many bottles I need to keep water that would remain at an X temperature

5. Last one after having my films to dry I cut them into pieces of 5 frames, to make sure they get easily inside my film transparent holders... One comment though is the surface has still a lot of curvature... which unfortunately means that I have then problem putting my film 5-frame pieces into my scanner (film holder) for scanning.. Any tips on that?

I would like to thank you for your reply
Regards
Alex


1. All branded fixer is good quality. Dont overuse it. If it gets too discoloured throw it away.

2. Use a mercury/alcohol thermometer, the sensor (i.e. the bulb of liquid is small)

3 /4. Put your bottles of chemicals in a bowl of warm tap water about 24 degrees. The warm water will cool and bring the bottles up to the temp you want. Or bring the bottles into the living room a couple of hours before use. To quickly bring the bottles up to temp. I use a wide jug or bowl, big enough for the bottle of developer, put hot water from the kettle into it and dip the dev bottle into it for a couple of minutes. agitate the bottle and measure. half a degree isnt going to kill it as I've said on numerous occasions. The fixer temp isnt critical at all 4 or 5 degrees either way wont matter a bit

5. Left longer to dry the curvature will reduce. I have mentioned this more than once.



Alex!
As mentioned previously, all branded chemistry, not only fixer, is good quality. A 1 liter of working (not concentrate from bottle) rapid fixer will fix 20-25 rolls of 36 exposures. You just have to follow instructions. You can develop the film at a lower temperature, say 16 or 17 degrees Celsius but for a longer duration. Just follow the developing time chart. All the other solutions and wash water must also be at that temperature as well. Double your fixing time.

Here are some links: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dial+thermometer
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/21946-REG/Heico_HG85_Perma_Wash_Liquid_for.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/168234-REG/Ilford_1970902_Universal_Wash_Aid_Liquid.html/prm/alsVwDtl
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195-REG/Kodak_1464510_Photo_Flo_200_Solution.html/prm/alsVwDtl

If you're not primarily making prints, only scanning, wash the film for less time. Use only 10 cycles, filling and dumping. The longer washing times is for archival results. If you have to, you can rewash the negatives at a later time.

Best wishes. Ed


PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi all,
thanks for the replies. I know this might sound that I am not overcomplicating.. I can still see that my process is not as good as I wanted to be. I can develop my negatives but I got a FP4 with grain... I am doing many things wrong so I need help to fine tune

-I know that branded developers are good, I picked ilford dd-x which is considered of very good quality and getting minimum grain with the fp4. Although my results look grainy so the ilford investment does not currently invest. My major problem is that it costs too much for one shot development. For my lifestyle (that is very busy) I would prefer one shot developments.. What do we have then as alternative for one shot developments that can handle all my iford films fp4,hp5,delta 3200 that were shot either at normal speed, pulled or pushed?

-As I said my hardest is keeping temperature constant and I am sure that If I improve on that I would see the quality I am looking forward to.
One way is to develop at cold water, since in Germany there is plenty Smile (tap water) . Regarding the thermometer I need perhaps somethimg more accurate like this
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Digitales-Koch-Fleisch-Thermometer-Ofenthermometer-mit-Alarmfunktion-/400698133740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item5d4b784cec
(I could not find your version in german ebay)

-I will also add a washing agent to save some water. I will just one that is not expensive and read the manual once it arrives. I would like to have archival quality.. even though I see that the negative holders I bought are not of best quality... Any tips for better negative holders?

I would like to thank you for your reply
Regards
Alex


PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
alaios wrote:
Hi all,
thanks for the replies. I know this might sound that I am not overcomplicating.. I can still see that my process is not as good as I wanted to be. I can develop my negatives but I got a FP4 with grain... I am doing many things wrong so I need help to fine tune

-I know that branded developers are good, I picked ilford dd-x which is considered of very good quality and getting minimum grain with the fp4. Although my results look grainy so the ilford investment does not currently invest. My major problem is that it costs too much for one shot development. For my lifestyle (that is very busy) I would prefer one shot developments.. What do we have then as alternative for one shot developments that can handle all my iford films fp4,hp5,delta 3200 that were shot either at normal speed, pulled or pushed?

-As I said my hardest is keeping temperature constant and I am sure that If I improve on that I would see the quality I am looking forward to.
One way is to develop at cold water, since in Germany there is plenty Smile (tap water) . Regarding the thermometer I need perhaps somethimg more accurate like this
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Digitales-Koch-Fleisch-Thermometer-Ofenthermometer-mit-Alarmfunktion-/400698133740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item5d4b784cec
(I could not find your version in german ebay)

-I will also add a washing agent to save some water. I will just one that is not expensive and read the manual once it arrives. I would like to have archival quality.. even though I see that the negative holders I bought are not of best quality... Any tips for better negative holders?

I would like to thank you for your reply
Regards
Alex


Alex!

That digital thermometer looks good and should serve you well as it will be more accurate and responsive. As I mentioned before, all solutions should be at similar temperatures and within 1 degree C. I feel use of cold water results in less than perfect negatives.

You might be getting slight reticulatipn resembling coarse grain or your negatives are overdeveloped leading to blocked highlights and lack of nice even range of tones depending upon your subjects. Here's an article about this condition:
http://petapixel.com/2015/02/14/nasa-time-lapse-shows-5-years-suns-life-3-glorious-minutes/

What brand of flat bed scanner are you using?

Practice makes perfect!

Ed


PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi,
thanks for the great answer.
I have developed one month ago a bunch of films that I am still scanning... I had run into lot of troubles (With the quality I got). I plan to post here in the future some of the scanned images to ask you what went wrong.

I am using a plustek 8200 i and I am really happy with the results. I was using in the past an epson 3490 photo but I sold the unit since I did not like the quality.

The major problems I currently have is
1. loading and unloading film in the spirals. In my spiral the 36 long film does not fit always in. Unloading it also created scratches on the surface
2. Reducing marks and finger tips on my negatives (they just look so small for my fingers Sad )
3. Temperature control while developing, rinsing.... I hope with the thermometer above I would have improved
4. Liquids price. I am using the ilford dd-x.. as these were considered the most fine quality ones and I was able to develop all different type of films pushed or pulled.. Although for one shot development (that could work the best for my lifestyle) the price is killing me.

I hope I will have some time next week to show some "bad" development results I have.
Regards
Alex


PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
alaios wrote:
Hi,
thanks for the great answer.
I have developed one month ago a bunch of films that I am still scanning... I had run into lot of troubles (With the quality I got). I plan to post here in the future some of the scanned images to ask you what went wrong.

I am using a plustek 8200 i and I am really happy with the results. I was using in the past an epson 3490 photo but I sold the unit since I did not like the quality.

The major problems I currently have is
1. loading and unloading film in the spirals. In my spiral the 36 long film does not fit always in. Unloading it also created scratches on the surface
2. Reducing marks and finger tips on my negatives (they just look so small for my fingers Sad )
3. Temperature control while developing, rinsing.... I hope with the thermometer above I would have improved
4. Liquids price. I am using the ilford dd-x.. as these were considered the most fine quality ones and I was able to develop all different type of films pushed or pulled.. Although for one shot development (that could work the best for my lifestyle) the price is killing me.

I hope I will have some time next week to show some "bad" development results I have.
Regards
Alex


Alex!

I see you've upgraded your scanner where the film frames are now scanned individually and the focus is right on. If you think about a flatbed scanner, the focus is on the glass plate where one would place a print. With a film holder, the film is raised however slightly above the glass so your negatives are less than optimum in terms of focus hence less sharp.

The reels are made to hold a full roll of 36 exposures minus the tongue and should end when the stainless steel spiral ends. Sometimes, in loading, the film will bind and skip a spiral and you can feel when this happens. The film actually overlaps and touches the surfaces of the film following (2 turns of film in the same spiral) resulting in the film not developing and fixing where they touched, getting pinkish white blobs.

You can wear latex gloves to handle the film when wet and you're washing the film. Use cotton gloves (same as those used to handle prints) to handle dry negatives.

Sorry, I sent you the wrong hot link. The correct link was an article about film reticulation caused by fluctuating solution temperature. I'll send it when I find it again!

You can use film developer in power form which is a bit cheaper. With liquid developers you're paying for the convenience of ready to use (add water) solutions. Film developers such as Kodak's D-76 or Ilford's ID-11 come in powered form and you need to mix and store them in their entirety, being less convenient but cheaper. For doing film occasionally, the liquids are your best bet.

Best wishes,

Ed


PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
elee950021 wrote:


I see you've upgraded your scanner where the film frames are now scanned individually and the focus is right on. If you think about a flatbed scanner, the focus is on the glass plate where one would place a print. With a film holder, the film is raised however slightly above the glass so your negatives are less than optimum in terms of focus hence less sharp.

The reels are made to hold a full roll of 36 exposures minus the tongue and should end when the stainless steel spiral ends. Sometimes, in loading, the film will bind and skip a spiral and you can feel when this happens. The film actually overlaps and touches the surfaces of the film following (2 turns of film in the same spiral) resulting in the film not developing and fixing where they touched, getting pinkish white blobs.

That happened me almost every time. What should I do to not have this problem any further?
elee950021 wrote:


You can wear latex gloves to handle the film when wet and you're washing the film. Use cotton gloves (same as those used to handle prints) to handle dry negatives.

Well when I am washing I do not touch the film surface. I am just rinsing over and over again with cold water. I think the problem comes when loading film into spirals, there I have touched it many times. Using gloves makes me loose the fine sense I need for loading.

elee950021 wrote:


Sorry, I sent you the wrong hot link. The correct link was an article about film reticulation caused by fluctuating solution temperature. I'll send it when I find it again!

You can use film developer in power form which is a bit cheaper. With liquid developers you're paying for the convenience of ready to use (add water) solutions. Film developers such as Kodak's D-76 or Ilford's ID-11 come in powered form and you need to mix and store them in their entirety, being less convenient but cheaper. For doing film occasionally, the liquids are your best bet.
Why should I keep the powder mixture? How many times I can re use them? To be honest for my lifestly one shot developers I think are the best.. but they turn to be really expensive.
I did not have the time to have a look on washing agents previous week, but I plan to do so next week that I will be in a conference
elee950021 wrote:


Best wishes,

Ed
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