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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 487
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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 Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| seuret wrote: | | I knew for years that Zeiss doesn't have anything in common with Sony's lenses. It's not a surprise. |
Quoting from Zeiss.com regarding Zeiss lenses for Sony:
ZEISS lenses for Sony digital cameras are developed by lens designers at the Carl Zeiss plant in Oberkochen, Germany. This includes all required quality assurance measures (test methods, test criteria, test devices, test procedures, lens performance target values, etc.) The lenses are then made in a lens production facility jointly chosen by Sony and Carl Zeiss. Quality assurance specialists from the Carl Zeiss plant in Oberkochen implement the ZEISS quality assurance system in the chosen facility. Many ZEISS optic measuring systems are installed. Carl Zeiss audits the lens production areas on a regular basis. |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 18173
Location: West Emilia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Excalibur wrote: |
Well not the camera but the Zeiss name is mentioned for the lens.
e.g
Yashica T5D
Carl Zeiss T*
Tessar 3.5/35 |
Exactly, not the camera. Zeiss never produced cameras after the Ikon factory in Stuttgart was closed down until the recent ZI rangefinder camera, which is the first Zeiss camera after nearly three decades.
Not just that: Zeiss always publicly declared that all the Contax cameras are of Japanese design.
And finally: Zeiss also declared that the ZI camera is the result of the collaboration with Mr. Kobayashi of Cosina/Voigtlaender. So no mystery or trickery about the ZI, either.
| Excalibur wrote: | | Well can anyone make the lens, install it in the camera and say it's a Zeiss because Zeiss discovered/designed the Tessar element arrangement? |
Not anyone. At the time, Zeiss outsourced the production of lenses to Yashica/Kyocera. The lens is a Zeiss design produced in Japan. Just like the Contax lenses.
Specifically, the T5D lens (a T* coated Tessar) was designed and produced at the same time as the Sonnar T* for the Contax T compact cameras.
Both lenses were designed in Oberkochen and produced in Japan as it was the standard in those days.
Of course the Contax T features the Sonnar because it aimed at a higher section of the market.
But the Tessar in the Yashica T5D is not "anyone's Tessar", it's a Zeiss designed T* coated Tessar. Which means that the performance is respectable, if for nothing else, for the coating, which is the same top quality coating that is found on Contax SLR lenses.
That all is very different from anyone making whatever lens and putting a Zeiss name on it.
_________________
Lens sana in corpore sano
My Web Galleries: ORIOFOTO.NET
My Photography Blog (in Italian and English)
Read list of equipment HERE
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2003
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Arkku wrote: | | seuret wrote: | | I knew for years that Zeiss doesn't have anything in common with Sony's lenses. It's not a surprise. |
Quoting from Zeiss.com regarding Zeiss lenses for Sony:
ZEISS lenses for Sony digital cameras are developed by lens designers at the Carl Zeiss plant in Oberkochen, Germany. This includes all required quality assurance measures (test methods, test criteria, test devices, test procedures, lens performance target values, etc.) The lenses are then made in a lens production facility jointly chosen by Sony and Carl Zeiss. Quality assurance specialists from the Carl Zeiss plant in Oberkochen implement the ZEISS quality assurance system in the chosen facility. Many ZEISS optic measuring systems are installed. Carl Zeiss audits the lens production areas on a regular basis. |
seuret is somewhat right... look at Sony/Zeiss 85mm Planar - the lens scheme is different to Zeiss 85mm Planar and VERY similar to Minolta 85mm 
_________________
for sale: Vivitar (Komine) 55/2.8 Macro 1:1 (K/AR) | CZJ Tessar 13,5cm f/4.5 (M42) | Vivitar 35/1.9 (M42) | (Carl Zeiss) aus Jena 1Q Biometar z. 80/2.8 P6
list of Helios 44 lenses | List of CZJ T-marked M42 lenses | I'm not absolutely retarded, English simply isn't my mother tongue :s)
up-to 30mm: Vivitar (Tokina) Series 1 VMC 28/1.9, Vivitar (Komine) MC close-focus 28/2.8, Zeiss Distagon T* 25/2.8 ZS
35mm: Super Takumar 35/2 PRO, S-M-C Takumar 35/2, S-M-C Takumar 35/3.5, CZJ eMC Flektogon 35/2.4, SC Curtagon 35/2.8, Vivitar 35/1.9, MG Primagon V 35/4.5, CZJ Tessar T 40/4.5
50mm: S-M-C Takumar 50/1.4, S-M-C Macro Takumar 50/4, Tomioka Cosinon MC 55/1.4, Tomioka Yashinon 55/1.2, Tomioka Macro Yashinon 60/2.8, CZJ Biotar T 58/2 preset, CZJ Biotar T 58/2 17-blades, CZJ eMC Pancolar 50/1.8, aJ Pancolar 55/1.4, KMZ Helios 44-2 58/2 00xxx, KMZ Helios 44-2 58/2 0xxx, MMZ Helios MC 44-3 58/2, Helios 77M 50/1.8, KMZ Zenitar M2s MC 50/2, KMZ Industar 50/3.5, MC Volna-9 Macro 50/2.8, MC Pentacon 50/1.8, MG Trioplan 50/2.9, MG Primoplan V 58/1.9, Voigtländer Color Ultron 50/1.8, Macro Prakticar 55/2.8
85mm:, CZJ Biotar T 75/1.5 M42, CZJ eMC Pancolar 80/1.8, aJ Biometar 80/2.8 P6 zebra, CZJ Biometar 80/2.8 M42, MG Primoplan V 75/1.9 [exa], MG Night Primoplan 80/1.9 [VP Night], KMZ Helios 40-2 85/1.5 (custom hybrid of 40 and 40-2), S-M-C Takumar 85/1.8, KMZ Jupiter-9 Π 8,5/2 M39, LZOS Jupiter-9 85/2 SLR M39, LZOS Jupiter-9 85/2 M42, Kodak Meniscus 90mm, MG Telefogar V 90/3.5, MG Trioplan V 100/2.8
over 100mm: Ernemann Kinostigmat 11cm, Voigtlander SL Macro APO Lanthar 125/2.5, Spiratone 135/1.8 plura-coat, KOMZ MC Jupiter 37AM 135/3.5, KOMZ Jupiter-11 135/4, KMZ Tair 11A 135/2.8, Pentacon preset 135/2.8 (bokehmonster), CZJ Sonnar MC 135/3.5, CZJ Triotar T 135/4, LR-A Pololyt 135/4.5 "T2", ZOMZ TAIR-3 300/4.5 |
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estudleon
Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 2690
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesant question. Thanks for all, the share information is great.
I remember when wanted to buy a rollei 35 RF cam. There were two options, a german with tessar lens and a singapur version with sonnar ones.
Differences? CQ. The tessar (german cam) had better CQ and the sonnar (singapur cam) had poor CQ, problem that was common to Rollei 35s made in singapur. The lenses elements were imported from germany and assambled in singapur. All that I said was told me by the rollei's importer and technic service in Argentina. In shutterbug I read something similar thing
Sonnar was a known zeiss design (effective trade mark or not), the people buy sonnar, buy zeiss. And were a lot of dogs in the rollei cams with zeiss name (and a lot of very good ones too). But this isn't the known zeiss history.
Rino.
_________________
Konica 2,8/100
CZJ: 4/20, 2,4/35, 1,8/50 aus jena, 3,5/135MC, Pentacon 1,8/50
Pentax S-M-C-1,4/50
Helios 44-3
Mamiya 2,8/135
Misc. : jupiter 9
Stuff used:
A) SRL
Alpa 10 D - kern macro Switar 1,9/50 -black, Kilffit apochromat 2/100.
Asahi pentax spotmatic super takumar 1,4/50
Contaflex super B tessar 2,8/50 Pro-tessar 115
Leica R3 electronic summicron 2/50 elmarit 2,8/35
Konica Autoreflex 3 (2 black and chrome one), TC, T4. 2,8/24, 3,5/28 not MC and MC, 1,8/40, 1,4/50, 1,7/50 MC and not MC, 1,8/85, 3,2/135, 3,5/135, 4/200
Minolta XG9 2,8/35, 2/45, 3,5/135
Nikkormat FTn 1,4/50, 2,8/135
Fujica ST 801, 605, 705n. 3,5/19, 1,4/50, 1,8/55, 4/85, 3,5/135.
Praktica MTL 5 and a lot of M42 lenses.
Voigtlander. Bessamatic m, bessamatix de luxe, bessamatic cs, ultramatic and ultramatic cs.
Skoparex 3,5/35, skopagon 2/40, skopar 2,8/50, skopar X 2,8/50, super lanthar (out of catalogue) 2,8/50, dinarex 3,4/90, dinarex 4,8/100, super dinarex 4/135, super dinarex 4/200, zoomar 2,8/36-83, portrait lens 0, 1 and 2. Curtagon 4/28 and 2,8/35
Canon AV1, 1,8/50
Rolleiflex SL35 and SL35 E. 2,8/35 angulon, 2,8/35 distagon, 1,4/55 rolleinar, 1,8/50 planar, 4/135 tessar, 2,8/135 rolleinar, x2 rollei, M42 to rollei adap.
Etc.
RF
Yashica Minister III
Voightlander Vito, vitomatic I, Vito C, etc.
Leica M. M2, M3 (d.s.) and M4. Schenider 3,4/21, 2/35 summaron 2,8/35 (with eyes). Summicron 2/35 (8 elements with eyes), 2/35 chrome, 2/35 black, 1,4/35 pre asph and aspheric - old -, 2/40 summicron, 2,8/50 elmar, 2/50 7 elements, 2/50 DR, 2/50 - minolta version, 1,4/50 summilux 1966 version, 1,4/75 summilux, 2/90 large version, 2/90 reduced version of 1987, 2,8/90 elmarit large version, 4/135 elmar. |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 18173
Location: West Emilia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| estudleon wrote: | Very interesant question. Thanks for all, the share information is great.
I remember when wanted to buy a rollei 35 RF cam. There were two options, a german with tessar lens and a singapur version with sonnar ones.
Differences? CQ. The tessar (german cam) had better CQ and the sonnar (singapur cam) had poor CQ, problem that was common to Rollei 35s made in singapur. The lenses elements were imported from germany and assambled in singapur. All that I said was told me by the rollei's importer and technic service in Argentina. In shutterbug I read something similar thing
Sonnar was a known zeiss design (effective trade mark or not), the people buy sonnar, buy zeiss. And were a lot of dogs in the rollei cams with zeiss name (and a lot of very good ones too). But this isn't the known zeiss history.
Rino. |
Attention: it was Rollei who outsourced production in Singhapour, not Zeiss. Zeiss partly produced directly some lenses for Rollei in Oberkochen (these carry the "Carl Zeiss" name on the lens), partly licensed the production of some lenses to Rollei. And then Rollei outsourced part of those licensed lenses to the Mamiya factory in Singhapour. Lenses produced in Singhapour do not carry the Zeiss name anywhere on them.
_________________
Lens sana in corpore sano
My Web Galleries: ORIOFOTO.NET
My Photography Blog (in Italian and English)
Read list of equipment HERE
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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 487
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| no-X wrote: | | seuret is somewhat right... look at Sony/Zeiss 85mm Planar - the lens scheme is different to Zeiss 85mm Planar and VERY similar to Minolta 85mm :wink: |
Minolta 85mm f/1.4 G has 7 elements in 6 groups, ZA Planar has 8 elements in 7 groups, and traditional Zeiss Planars (C/Y, ZF, etc) have 6 elements in 5 groups. So, all seem like different Planar-based designs…
But, actually, the Minolta G lens is really, really good, so if Zeiss made a new design using ideas from the Minolta design (now available from Sony), the result might well be a better lens. This could also be the reason why the other currently available 85mm f/1.4 Zeiss Planars are different than the ZA one; Sony may not allow the use of this design for other systems. Of course, this is pure speculation with no facts to back it up. =)
(I think it's more probable that the difference is to accommodate autofocus.) |
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Excalibur
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 573
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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This thread is getting confusing, so:-
If the Zeiss name is mentioned on any camera now or the past, does it mean Zeiss designed the lens for that camera, not necessary actually made it?
_________________
Nikon L35ad, EM & N2000, Canon AV1, T70 & T90, Minolta X-700, SRT101b and AFZ, Pentax S3, Practica MTL3, Konica Autoreflex TC, FT-1 & C35, Olympus Om10 & 20, Yashica T5D, Fuji STX-2, Bronica Etrs, Mamiya RB67 pro AND drum roll:- a Sony DSC-P92
.........past gear Tele Rollieflex and Rollei SL66.
Loads of lenses but nothing extra special. |
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Seele
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 453
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Excalibur,
Not invariably; during the "British" Carl Zeiss Jena period, a camera marked "Carl Zeiss Jena" was offered which was actually a re-badged Chinon. This, I believe, is a one-off anomoly, however. |
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Sevo
Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 618
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Excalibur wrote: | This thread is getting confusing, so:-
If the Zeiss name is mentioned on any camera now or the past, does it mean Zeiss designed the lens for that camera, not necessary actually made it? |
No.
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Sevo |
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seuret
Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Posts: 29
Location: Bulgaria
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Arkku wrote: | | seuret wrote: | | I knew for years that Zeiss doesn't have anything in common with Sony's lenses. It's not a surprise. |
Quoting from Zeiss.com regarding Zeiss lenses for Sony:
ZEISS lenses for Sony digital cameras are developed by lens designers at the Carl Zeiss plant in Oberkochen, Germany. This includes all required quality assurance measures (test methods, test criteria, test devices, test procedures, lens performance target values, etc.) The lenses are then made in a lens production facility jointly chosen by Sony and Carl Zeiss. Quality assurance specialists from the Carl Zeiss plant in Oberkochen implement the ZEISS quality assurance system in the chosen facility. Many ZEISS optic measuring systems are installed. Carl Zeiss audits the lens production areas on a regular basis. |
I'm sorry, there is misunderstanding. I don't know much about he lens for the photocamera. What i wrote was about the video cameras from Sony. We all know this was the start in Zeiss-Sony companionship.
_________________
SLR Cameras:Zenit 122, Praktica MTL5B, Nikon D90
RF Cameras: Siluet Elektro
Lenses: Pentacon auto 50/1.8, Pentacon electric 135/2.8, Helios 44M-6 58/2, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180/2.8 for Pentacon six, Nikkor 50/1.8,AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED,Nikkor AF 70-210-4-5.6 |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 18173
Location: West Emilia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Excalibur wrote: | This thread is getting confusing, so:-
If the Zeiss name is mentioned on any camera now or the past, does it mean Zeiss designed the lens for that camera, not necessary actually made it? |
The experience, and Zeiss' own statements, show that whenever you see the Zeiss name on a lens, that lens was either designed by Carl Zeiss and produced by an outsource company under the control of Carl Zeiss, or designed and produced directly by Carl Zeiss.
We have evidences outside of Zeiss' own reports, that support this conclusion:
- Icarex lenses that were designed by Voigtlaender and built by Zeiss at Oberkochen, are marked Carl Zeiss, because at the time this happened, Voigtlaender was already bought by Carl Zeiss and incorporated into the company;
- Contax SLR lenses that were designed and built by Carl Zeiss in Oberkochen are marked Carl Zeiss made in West Germany, or made in Germany;
- Contax SLR lenses that were designed by Carl Zeiss and outsourced to Yashica/Kyocera for building (under Zeiss control), are marked Carl Zeiss made in Japan;
- Rollei SL lenses that were designed and built by Carl Zeiss at Oberkochen, are marked Carl Zeiss made in Germany;
- Rollei SL lenses whose design by Carl Zeiss was licensed to Rollei for production (under Rollei control) are marked either Rollei made in Germany or Rollei made in Singapore, depending on the location of the factory to which Rollei outsourced the building of the lenses.
Regarding the Sony Alpha lenses, judging on the optical scheme and on Zeiss' own statement, it appears likely that the lens was either designed by Zeiss or perhaps a previous Minolta design was later revised by Zeiss, and then outsourced to the Minolta factory for the production. In any case, the fact that it bears the Carl Zeiss name implies at the very least a technical approval by Zeiss on the design and production of the lens. The brand reputation is a fundamental asset for a company like Zeiss. You can be sure that Zeiss will not act as a postal market catalogue brand when it comes to outsourcing or licensing a lens with their name on it.
_________________
Lens sana in corpore sano
My Web Galleries: ORIOFOTO.NET
My Photography Blog (in Italian and English)
Read list of equipment HERE
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Excalibur
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 573
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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***The experience, and Zeiss' own statements, show that whenever you see the Zeiss name on a lens, that lens was either designed by Carl Zeiss and produced by an outsource company under the control of Carl Zeiss, or designed and produced directly by Carl Zeiss.***
Thank you, that's cleared that up........side tracking but interesting, the Tesser design P&S was out classed for sharpness by a Sonnar design P&S. i.e. Yashica T4/T5 ver Nikon L35 (but Nikon don't advertise Zeiss), although I must add I've only used one film in the T5 so my view might change.
_________________
Nikon L35ad, EM & N2000, Canon AV1, T70 & T90, Minolta X-700, SRT101b and AFZ, Pentax S3, Practica MTL3, Konica Autoreflex TC, FT-1 & C35, Olympus Om10 & 20, Yashica T5D, Fuji STX-2, Bronica Etrs, Mamiya RB67 pro AND drum roll:- a Sony DSC-P92
.........past gear Tele Rollieflex and Rollei SL66.
Loads of lenses but nothing extra special. |
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eggboy
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Boston, MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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The Contax N Autofocus 85/1.4 was a 10 element internal focus design. Is this similar to the current Sony-mount version? Oddly, I don't see the Sony designs on the zeiss.com site, where they pretty much have all the other lines, both past and current.
http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/Contents-Frame/5ed01eb620d0b1cec12570f80033cada
| Arkku wrote: | | no-X wrote: | | seuret is somewhat right... look at Sony/Zeiss 85mm Planar - the lens scheme is different to Zeiss 85mm Planar and VERY similar to Minolta 85mm |
Minolta 85mm f/1.4 G has 7 elements in 6 groups, ZA Planar has 8 elements in 7 groups, and traditional Zeiss Planars (C/Y, ZF, etc) have 6 elements in 5 groups. So, all seem like different Planar-based designs…
But, actually, the Minolta G lens is really, really good, so if Zeiss made a new design using ideas from the Minolta design (now available from Sony), the result might well be a better lens. This could also be the reason why the other currently available 85mm f/1.4 Zeiss Planars are different than the ZA one; Sony may not allow the use of this design for other systems. Of course, this is pure speculation with no facts to back it up. =)
(I think it's more probable that the difference is to accommodate autofocus.) |
_________________
Eugene
SLR Lenses:
Canon FD 50/1.4
Carl Zeiss Jena 58/2 Biotar T* M42 c.1950 (nickel over brass..heavy!)
Carl Zeiss Jena 5.8cm /2 Biotar Exakta, c. 1937 (nickel over brass..REALLY heavy!) (uncoated, pre-war)
Carl Zeiss Jena 5.8cm /2 Biotar Exakta, c. 1942 (mostly aluminum...REALLY light!) (really early T coating!)
Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm/2.8 Tessar Exakta mount, c.1936 (pretty damn heavy too!) (uncoated, pre-war)
Isco-Göttingen 100/4.5 M42
Ludwig Victar 5cm/2.9 M40 mount (uncoated, pre-war?)
Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 5.8cm/1.9 Exakta (really heavy!)(uncoated, pre-war)
Minolta Rokkor PG 55/1.2 converted to M42 mount
Pentacon 50/1.8 M42
Portragon 100/4 T-mount
Schneider Kreuznach Xenon 5cm/2 Exakta(uncoated, pre-war)
Yashica DSB 135/2.8 C/Y mount
Yashinon 50/2 M42 Semi Auto
Zeiss C/Y: 50/1.4 Planar, 28/2.8 Distagon
Nikkors: Nikkor 105/2.5 (Gauss), Nikkor-P 105/2.5 (Sonnar), Nikkor-Micro 55mm/3.5, Nikkor-N 35/1.4, Nikkor-O 35/2, Nikkor-S.C. 50/1.4, Nikkor-S 55/1.2,Nikkor N.C. 28/2
Canon EF Mount: 35/2 EOS, 50/1.4 EOS, 85/1.8 EOS, 10-20mm Sigma, 17-55/2.8 EOS
Cameras:
Canon 40D with manual focus screen Ef-S
Canon F-1
Nikon F Photomic Tn
Practica LTL (my first ever SLR, circa 1975!)
Zeiss Ikonta 521 folder 6x9 Zeiss 105/4.5 Novar
--Whatever else is in my closet at any given time |
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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 487
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| eggboy wrote: | | The Contax N Autofocus 85/1.4 was a 10 element internal focus design. Is this similar to the current Sony-mount version? Oddly, I don't see the Sony designs on the zeiss.com site, where they pretty much have all the other lines, both past and current. |
I couldn't find the optical diagram of the ZA Planar either, but the element count was 8 in 7 groups, so at least it's not completely the same as the Contax N. Also, the ZA Planar is not internal focusing (unlike the ZA Sonnar 135mm f/1.8). |
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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 487
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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…and then I google something different related to the lens and actually find the diagram for the ZA Planar.
And a comparison of the diagrams of all the discussed 85mm f/1.4's here; they are indeed all different. Actually the Contax N version looks the most different one. |
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