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Berolina 100mm 2.8 from Japan and Topcon RE comparo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:03 pm    Post subject: Berolina 100mm 2.8 from Japan and Topcon RE comparo Reply with quote
I bought this lens just to see how closely it compared to the Topcon RE with the same specs. It is also the subject of the "crystallization" question I recently posted. I have been curious about these things ever since I noticed that some of the Berolina marque lenses were made in Japan and have a strong resemblance to the Topcon lenses. So after watching the auction house for quite some time I snagged this. Other than the weird issue in the interior it is in fantastic condition. Does anybody know who made these things? I know most of the German made Berolina were from Enna. Are these Sun products?







PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Let the duel begin.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is Sun made. I collected all of these rebranded 100mm 2.8, very nice performer.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rebranded?
Rebranded by who?
All made by sun?


PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Berolina 100mm 2.8 from Japan and Topcon RE comparo Reply with quote
jamaeolus wrote:
I bought this lens just to see how closely it compared to the Topcon RE with the same specs.
...
Does anybody know who made these things? I know most of the German made Berolina were from Enna. Are these Sun products?


I have a similarly looking Elicar Automatic 1:2.8 f=100mm, albeit black in color and with Minolta MC bayonet mount.The engravings seem to be identical to your Beroflex; SN of mine is an equally "low" 700169.

Most interesting, when I use a spotlight and look at the internal reflexions of the glass surfaces, both the Topcor RE as well as the Elicar 2.8/100mm seem to have the same reflections - both seen from the front siode as well as from the back side, indicating a similar or even identical optical construction. Coating is different though.

I don't remember wether the optical performance of my Elicar was as good as the Topcor RE, but I will check that soon.

This 2.8/100mm Elicar certainly is much better than my other two Elicars, a 2.8/135mm and a 2.8/35mm. Both the 35mm as well as the 135mm simply are crap ...

S


PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Berolina Kino-Optik GmbH. was a rather big distributer of photo equipment located in Berlin and sold a lot of different cameras and lenses from various manufacturers, some of them rebranded as "Berolina".
The theory that lenses made in Germany are from a single manufacturer is similar wrong as that lenses made in Japan are all from Sun.
However, since there is no documentation, there is a lot of room for rumors....


PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cbass wrote:
Rebranded?
Rebranded by who?
All made by sun?


I should be more precise. I meant all these 68***, 69***, 70*** lenses are identical to me and are believed to be made by Sun.

This page listed more brands of this lens.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4117197

I feel Chinon/Tomioka and Topcor 100mm are different from the bunch.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
vivaldibow wrote:
cbass wrote:
Rebranded?
Rebranded by who?
All made by sun?


I should be more precise. I meant all these 68***, 69***, 70*** lenses are identical to me and are believed to be made by Sun.

This page listed more brands of this lens.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4117197

I feel Chinon/Tomioka and Topcor 100mm are different from the bunch.


Very Interesting. Thank you.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This are the results of a quick comparison, made today in less-than-perfect light conditions:



As usual, these are 100% crops from 24 MP JPGs out of the Sony A7II.

To my surprise, the Elicar 2.8/100mm (which has a slightly different barrel than the lens mentioned by th OP) is better than the Topcor RE 2.8/10cm (which in turn is better than my copy of the Topcor RE 2.8/100mm; results not shown here)! I have added also the results of the Minolta AF 2.8/100mm Macro, an excellent und vastly underrated lens available in the CHF 100.-- range.

S


PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Good results from the Elicar!
The Minolta AF 100/2.8 is a lens I should probably buy again!


PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:
Good results from the Elicar!

Yes, I was surprised myself - I only had tested it quickly when I got it (from the wast bin of local shop), and basically forgotten.

caspert79 wrote:
The Minolta AF 100/2.8 is a lens I should probably buy again!

That one is a steal these days - excellent at infinity and still very good at 1:1 ... about CHF / EUR / USD 100.-- surely are not much for a lens that is built in metal ...

S


PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Sun example is obviously a very good lens. I was always curious about the livery similarities. Wondering if perhaps the same designer(s) penned both.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cbass wrote:


Very Interesting. Thank you.


You are welcome.

stevemark wrote:
This are the results of a quick comparison, made today in less-than-perfect light conditions:

As usual, these are 100% crops from 24 MP JPGs out of the Sony A7II.

To my surprise, the Elicar 2.8/100mm (which has a slightly different barrel than the lens mentioned by th OP) is better than the Topcor RE 2.8/10cm (which in turn is better than my copy of the Topcor RE 2.8/100mm; results not shown here)! I have added also the results of the Minolta AF 2.8/100mm Macro, an excellent und vastly underrated lens available in the CHF 100.-- range.

S

Appreciate your comparison as usual. This is sort of in line with my observation. Of all these 100/105 2.5/2.8 I tested. This one made by Sun somehow stands out, not the Topcor, not the Nikkor, nor other major brands.
Another ones that stand out are Miranda Kowa 105mm and Tamron Adaptamatic 105mm. It is just my impression and not side by side test, and could be due to sample variation.

Regarding the Minolta 100mm AF macro. I used once at 1:1, but found the contrast is pretty low, compared to all other MF macro I've tested (Vivitar S1 90, Kiron 105, Komine made 90, Tamron 90 (52B/52BB). But I've never tried at non macro distance.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I wonder who copied who if anybody. My understanding is the Topcor is a sonnar lens design. Was it a design they took from a German optical formula or is it a unique calculation? The sun lenses use the same optical formula or one that's very similar? Topcor I assume came first as their 100 2.8 was made in the 1950s and the others came later either copying it or coming up with their own variation. Or if Sun did make it perhaps Topcon bought the sun design and sun owned it originally? Didn't sun make the 87-205 zoom for Topcor? I guess at this point we won't know. However, I am also surprised the Elicar outperformed the Topcor. I would not have expected that. If it was a Sun design the whole time then either it was refined later on or it's sample variation.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cbass wrote:
I wonder who copied who if anybody. My understanding is the Topcor is a sonnar lens design.

It is: http://artaphot.ch/topcon-re/re-auto-topcor-lenses/485-re-auto-topcor-100mm-f28

cbass wrote:
Was it a design they took from a German optical formula or is it a unique calculation?

The Zeiss Sonnars 2/85mm (8.5cm) were six- or seven lens designs; the Sonnar 2.8/18cm was a five lens design; some of Berteles later (1950) computations were looking quite similar to the Topcor RE 2.8/10cm (see eg http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Bertele_Sonnar/00_pag.htm). The Nikkor 2.5/105mm originally was a Sonnar type too, but with a quite different lens section: https://imaging.nikon.com/history/story/0005/index.htm

cbass wrote:

The sun lenses use the same optical formula or one that's very similar?

Probably not the same formula, since the performance (including lateral CAs!) is clearly different. However the formula must be vey similar since the reflections look more or less identical (I can't see any difference).

cbass wrote:

Topcor I assume came first as their 100 2.8 was made in the 1950s and the others came later either copying it or coming up with their own variation. Or if Sun did make it perhaps Topcon bought the sun design and sun owned it originally? Didn't sun make the 87-205 zoom for Topcor? I guess at this point we won't know. However, I am also surprised the Elicar outperformed the Topcor. I would not have expected that. If it was a Sun design the whole time then either it was refined later on or it's sample variation.

Yes, I didn't expect the Elicar (Sun?) to be better than both samples of the Topcor RE (even though I knew it was a good lens). I dont' think it's the same optical design and "only sample variation" since the CAs look quite different - somthing that usually can't bee seen if we have "just sample variation".

Would be interesting to see the performance of other re-branded Sun 2.8/100mm lenses ...

S


PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
@jamaeolus

When are we going to see a shoot out between the Topcor and Berolina?
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