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Apo Lanthar test Reports
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Marko-Planar is a Zeiss design, made by Cosina.
The Apo-Lanthars are Cosina designs.
Behind the brand names, there are people working.
Erhard Glatzel, Walter Woeltche, Heinrich Basista are those who made Zeiss lenses the top in the 60s, 70s and 80s with the Contarex and Contax SLR line of lenses.
It is obvious, and not only by the newer Makro-Planar 100, that the real designers who are behind the Zeiss name and lenses today, are not up to the tradition.

One common mantra is to blame Cosina for the quality control in the Z line of lenses. And compare them with how Kyocera was effective.
I think that the Voigtlaender SL line of lenses proves that Cosina is able to do both the building and the QC jobs quite right. Whereas the Z line of lenses proves that it is effeectively Zeiss which supervises the production, and it is Zeiss to blame for the not ideal QC and the shortcomings in performance of some of the Z lenses.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
@abazz: I fully agree Sebastien, I have no clue why that OOF LCA problem is ingnored (or played down) so much. I was so terribly disappointed about that, that I sold my new ZF 2/100mm in favour of keeping my 2.5/125mm Makro Apo Lanthar (I had both in parallel which made comparison easy)

@Stan: I understood that the Makro 2/100mm as well as the other Zx lenses are genuine ZEISS designs, but manufactured to Zeiss given quaility standards by COSINA - a classic subcontracting / outsourcing case. So they are NOT Cosina designs. We should be correct about that to avoid confusion by readers. That Cosina stopped making their own (and better) product in favour of getting a several digit millon $ deal can be fully understood - who would not have signed that contrast in these economic times!? So that design weakness is a ZEISS issue, just to make things crystal clear (pun intended)!


Yes, Klaus.

Let's say -- ZEISS handling + COSINA investments (? - if any) = ZEISS MAKRO-PLANAR 2/100 is a crap in this MARKET Cool - the question is WHY.

That means that the quality of Zeiss Makro-Planar 2/100 doesn't reflect the price level in any way or Zeiss has a bad marketing strategy (?)
I don't know. If you have a name - like ZEISS have - it's really difficult to do acquisitions (even with Cosina)...
To keep your self in this market means to be aware of any consequences they may affect your 'name' (brand) later on

Speaking about economy CLIMATE = people spending STILL the same amount of money or even more in this time! Why?
They are trying to save their money by making investments - Zeiss 2/100 is NOT A GOOD OPTION ..

For some reasons people ALWAYS pay INSANE prices for products they are:

1 - at good quality level
2 - rare
3 - to make a profit on them ..

What's going on? Smile I am just asking -- I don't have too much information about Zeiss strategy --
So, please, if you have any, it would be great to know about them ...

thanks ..

Stan


PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio - has made a good point - people ..

This is the spirit of the Zeiss -- their people always used to be great in their ideas and approach.

Another questions is -- where those people from Cosina are ? They could help with Makro-Planar 2/100 design ... Smile - just kidding Smile

the APO-LANTHARS were/are so great -- so why not to use their experience when creating Zeiss desings. Smile

tf


PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
@Stan, you're asking questions only your "crystal ball" may be able to answer. A few years ago the marketing manager of Zeiss left Zeiss and went to Leitz in the same position (and experience and very well knowledgeable person) just when they started the Z-series of lenses. Coincidence?

@Orio: I full agree about the decline in quality Zeiss once was so very well known of, every single lens had been inspected and tested to fully comply to their very high inhouse standards. This seems to be not the case anymore with their Z-line, since I myself experience also quality issues on my RF lenses and I read about others too. And to re.iterate: this is NOT a COSINA issue, since Zeiss sets the standards, not Cosina.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Those were all compelling arguments against the rebirth of Lanthars. Only time will tell whether the dealer I spoke to was right. For all I know, it may be the non-APO 75mm they're bringing back or perhaps the 180 or some other focal length not presently offered or planned by Zeiss.

The "Voigtländer" name is still owned by Zeiss (only licensed to Cosina and predating the ZF/ZE/ZK/ZM contracts) so I imagine they do have a say how Cosina uses it.

Many of you have mentioned the LCA visible with the Zeiss 100. I suspect for (too) many non-discerning eyes, it simply is not a major factor when stacked up against the extraordinary resolving capabilities and speed of the lens. Personally, the "purple pollution" of an uncorrected lens drives me crazy; the Nikkor 180 ED I have owned since the mid-90's has seen limited use in recent years for this reason alone and what drove me to pick up the CV 180 (which, to be fair, is not perfectly apochromatic either despite the APO designation, but nearly so).


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
james wrote:
The "Voigtländer" name is still owned by Zeiss (only licensed to Cosina and predating the ZF/ZE/ZK/ZM contracts) so I imagine they do have a say how Cosina uses it.


Sorry if I seem pedantic, but the Voigtländer brand has nothing to do with Zeiss since the 1980s.

The Voigtländer company was founded in Vienna (Austria) by Johann Friedrich Voigtländer in 1756. In 1925, the family business was transformed into a stock corporation and in 1930, Schering AG, a German pharmaceutical company, acquired the majority of the Voigtländer shares. In 1959, Schering AG sold Voigtländer to the Carl-Zeiss-Foundation, which first chose to keep the Voigtländer brand, then decided to merge Zeiss-Ikon and Voigtländer into one entity. But soon the new Zeiss-Ikon-Voitländer company went into trouble, due to the increasing concurrence of the Japanese industry. In 1982, the Voigtländer brand was sold to Rollei, then sold again in 1996 to Plusfoto GmbH, and finally sold to Ringfoto GmbH & Alfo Marketing KG in 1997.

Ringfoto still owns the Voigtländer brand today and sells cheap digital cameras and accessories under the name Voigtländer (see this page), but it has also licensed the name to Cosina to commercialize a line of higher grade rangefinder cameras and lenses.

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Appreciate the correction.

But I still stand by the dealer who similarly alluded to a 'new lens' before the announcement of the CV 20.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
james wrote:
I still stand by the dealer who similarly alluded to a 'new lens' before the announcement of the CV 20.

Of course Cosina might very well release a new SLII lens but I doubt it will be a new version of the Macro Apo-Lanthar 125/2.5 because, as explained before, the new lens would compete with the Zeiss Makro-Planar 100/2. But the new lens could very well be an enhanced version of the Apo-Lanthar 180/4. My personal favorite would be a retrofocus version of Cosina's Ultra-Wide Heliar -- which is still today the widest rectilinear lens covering the 24x36 format, tied for the first place with the 12-24mm Sigma zoom...

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks Sebastien for the correction, you were a bit faster than me to respond!

Personally I would second the opinion of a forthcoming super wide in SL II version, due to the demand for such lens in a "small sensor world".


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Now that would be something; a 12 or 15mm rectilinear! The SLI versions required mirror lock-up, though.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abbazz wrote:

Of course Cosina might very well release a new SLII lens but I doubt it will be a new version of the Macro Apo-Lanthar 125/2.5 because, as explained before, the new lens would compete with the Zeiss Makro-Planar 100/2.


A good argument, although using it one could also argue that Cosina would not release a 20mm lens because it would compete with the Zeiss 21mm or 18mm. Except, they did. Of course, its a lot less expensive.

Cosina, if you are reading this, please feel free to use the same strategy to make an SL2 Makro 125/2.5 that sells for less than half what the Zeiss 100/2 Makro costs.

Abbazz wrote:
But the new lens could very well be an enhanced version of the Apo-Lanthar 180/4.


Well, that would be very nice, certainly.

Abbazz wrote:
My personal favorite would be a retrofocus version of Cosina's Ultra-Wide Heliar -- which is still today the widest rectilinear lens covering the 24x36 format, tied for the first place with the 12-24mm Sigma zoom...


Isn't the whole point of the ultra-Wide Heliar and the Super-Wide Heliar that they are [b]non-retrofocus[/url] designs? So a retrofocus version is simply a new lens.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
james wrote:
Now that would be something; a 12 or 15mm rectilinear! The SLI versions required mirror lock-up, though.


That was why Sebastien specified a retrofocus design.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ChrisLilley wrote:
Isn't the whole point of the ultra-Wide Heliar and the Super-Wide Heliar that they are [b]non-retrofocus[/url] designs? So a retrofocus version is simply a new lens.

In fact, the very short focal length of the Ultra-Wide Heliar required the rear nodal point to be moved backwards a bit comparatively to a symmetrical design (compare the layout to a Biogon or a Super-Angulon for example). So, strictly speaking, the 12/5.6 lens -- as its 15/4.5 sibling -- is not a pure non-retrofocus design but indeed a "mild" retrofocus design with a stronger divergent front group:



The focal length of a lens is the distance between the image plane and the rear nodal point. It means that for a non-retrofocus 12mm lens, the distance between the rear nodal point (which is located inside the lens in a symmetrical design) and the focal plane would not be enough to clear the shutter of a Leica!

Cheers!

Abbazz
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