Agitation v Inversion

martinsmith99 · Expire: 2013-11-18

What's your method?

I think I've been a a bit `keen' with my inversions which could be causing my grain issues. FP4 - 4 mins in Ifosol 3, inverting 5x each min then a few taps.

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

Agitation is performed with strong inversions, you are not supposed to shake the tank like a cocktail Wink

I'm not a real expert of darkroom problems, but too much grain I think could depend from too long development time (in other words you might have "pushed" a bit your film)
Or maybe temperature problems?

martinsmith99 · Expire: 2013-11-18

hexi · Expire: 2011-11-18

I also had the grain issue one a fp4 @125 iso, which shouldn't be the case. The method was inversion 10 sec , then 1 inv/minute .

This was a bad method , at least for me cause firstly the negatives were too grainy, some parts were undeveloped , water leaks . I've even had totally green negatives when scanned cause it was too shaked during process Confused

So now i've came to regular results doing agitation method. far better ! Changed agitation method also to come to regular results with a particular type of film ( Foma 100 ) : continous agitation during first minute, then 4/minute for about 7-8 minutes . stop bath 45sec . fixed 4.30 minutes.

Agitation allows the developer to run smoothly through all the negative, at least its what i think. Worx for me Very Happy

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

Carlsson · Joined: 26 Jul 2008 Posts: 793 Location: Portugal

martinsmith99 · Expire: 2013-11-18

My next roll to develope is Fuji Neopan 400. In Ilfosol 3, the developing time is 6:30.

Any tips on how I should agitate this? I'm thinking 15secs initial agitation then a few secs every minute or less?

I appreciate it's a fairly modern film so quite different to Foma/FP4.

peterqd · Expire: 2014-01-04

I don't understand what effect over or under agitation has on the development.

I've just had a disaster with PanF+ and a fresh batch of undiluted Perceptol, I can't work out what happened. Not graininess, but the negs were almost completely underdeveloped, extremely thin with just a few of the highlights in the images showing as dark patches on the negatives. I've never had this happen before.

I'm pretty sure it isn't an exposure problem because the imprinted film info and frame numbers along the edges of the film are very thin too, just like the images. I thought I was careful with times and temperatures and mixing the powders, so I think it must be an agitation issue. I inverted 5 times at the start and then once every 30 seconds.

Carlsson · Joined: 26 Jul 2008 Posts: 793 Location: Portugal

As Orio said, agitation has a great impact on the development (particles on spots, fresh particles...)

Try to shoot a test roll, develop it with the recommended dev-time.
Adjust the developing times (more or less), sometimes the manufactures developing times are conflicting.
Or compensate the underexposure with the ISO setting on your camera. For example, I've found out that the Rollei Retro 100 tends to underexposure, setting ISO to 80 did the trick. Or use your exposure compensation dial.
Write down your experiences with times, temps, agitation, so that you can recreate the wanted result.

And perhaps, use "forgiving" developers first.

Nesster · Expire: 2014-02-20

In my experience agitation is the butter on top... which butter and how much doesn't change how the bread was baked, now does it? Dragging from memory, it has something to do with contrast, yes, but also acutance... less agitation increases acutance? (This from a brain with <1 cup of coffee, just woken up... dredging memories from 35 years ago...)

As I use a plastic tank that's set up for agitation with and up/down sort of motion, I agitate. ~15-30 sec in the beginning... then ~5sec or ~5twirls ~every 1 minute. If I'm off by some seconds, I don't worry. Also, 30sec shorter agitation vs. 1 min longer one doesn't seem to make too much of a diff.

Inversion I was trained to do slowly, the whole cycle taking ~1-2 sec... and again, one to three is plenty enough.

martinsmith99 · Expire: 2013-11-18

Good info - Thanks for you input.

I've read that agitation may speed up development by as much as 20%. I think I may be pushing the film slightly as well as increasing the contrast.

peterqd · Expire: 2014-01-04

Xpres · Expire: 2014-10-28

Well, with tanks I invert. Or at least a rolling kind of inversion, three times on the minute and a bump on the table to lose the bubbles.
The important thing is to do many tests until you're happy and then stick to you method and never change. There are enough variables already.

martinsmith99 · Expire: 2013-11-18

R09 is what seems popular for `Stand Development'.

My understanding is 1:100 mixture but never less than 5ml developer. Agitate 30secs then leave for an hour.

It also seems that you rate the film less than it should be. FP4 is often shot at 100iso or below.

Farside · Expire: 2013-12-27

Seele · Joined: 17 Apr 2009 Posts: 741 Location: Sydney Australia

Some thoughts here.

1. Use just enough solution to cover the film, unless the quantity is not enough to process the film surface area.

2. Make sure the spiral is anchored to the bottom of the tank; you would not want it to "ride" up the central shaft, or if you use shaftless-type tanks (eg Nikor, Kindermann etc), put an empty spiral on top to fix its position at the bottom.

3. Never use a tank to its full capacity: leave at least the same amount of air space in the tank as the volume of the solution inside.

Reason:

During development, the developing agent is used up at places where development is more vigorous, and that also produces waste product - bromine - which acts as a restrainer. As bromine is passed into the solution, it slides down the film surface and slows down development along the way, so there are cases where you can see "bromine drags" running from the bright areas into the darker bits.

So, to ensure the developer is homogenized, when the tank is inverted, you want the solution to completely drained from the film coil, mixed up, and then plonked straight over the film again.

Hope this is of some use.

rawhead · Expire: 2014-04-29

For me, by far the biggest difference has come from different developers. FP4+ worked best for me with DD-X, absolutely beautiful tone & contrast.

Nesster · Expire: 2014-02-20

I'm glad my wee brain cells were able to recall the acutance thing...

anyhow, here's a very interesting & informative thread
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=002BN8

hexi · Expire: 2011-11-18

martinsmith99 · Expire: 2013-11-18

ryan s · Joined: 26 Sep 2008 Posts: 384 Location: Madison, WI

I do 4 90-degree slow inversions at the beginning of each minute, for about 10 seconds. Works for short dev times like HP5 in DD-X (9 minutes).

marty · Joined: 09 Apr 2009 Posts: 767 Location: Italy

Very interesting thread. A lot has been said and only one thing seem to be missing: the type of the tank. Some tanks, like mine, are not meant to be inverted. They're provided with a stirring rod which is inserted thru the screw on lid and connects with the axle of the reels (it also acts as a kind of funnel to pour the liquids inside the tank itself). The agitation is performed just spinning the rod. Doing inversions with this type of tank will lead to two problems (I've experienced this myself): 1) the inverted tank is going to leak
(the external lid is not liquid-proof) 2) Uneven development in the edge area
with streaks in the vicinity of the perforations.
That said my method is, regardless the type of the film, 30" continuous spinning in the beginning then 5" spinning every 30". At the and of each cycle I tap gently the tank on the table top to dislodge eventual air bubbles from the emulsion.

Cheers, Marty.

hexi · Expire: 2011-11-18

That's what i do. I even bought a smaller Paterson Tank System 4 for the purpose. My dilution is based on 300ml ( max tank capacity ) so for the parts its easier , goes like this :

developer ( Rodinal ) 1+25 : 12ml 1+50 : 6ml ( its not spot on )
stop bath ( Tetenal ) 1+19 : 15ml
fixer : Tetenal : 1+9 : 30ml

stop & fixer can be reused up to 8 times ( so far its what i've done but maybe go up to 10 or more ) Tetenal stop bath changes color when the bath has to be changed ( turns to yellow )

i also use Tetenal Mirasol in order to leave less marks on the film during drying, the bottle says 1+400, but its tough to measure so i drop some into the bottle. You can also use dish liquid , two drops in the last water washing. Let rest for about 1-2 min without rinsing, workx fine.

lulalake · Expire: 2011-11-18

The thoughts that are in this thread are very good for using standard developers however if you are using staining developers such as the PYRO family pyrogallol or pyrocatechin it�s a somewhat different story and inversions are highly recommended.

I developed this shot last weekend, Mamiya 645AF, FP4+, 45mm Mamiya lens, using a staining developer. If one simply twists the twister stick you are tempting fate to produce wide stripes of well stained areas and strips of not so well stained areas on the negs.

The staining developer is in this case coffee. Yes Java! I am in the midst of writing an article about how to do this effectively. It won�t be ready for three weeks or so but I will let you know when it is done. There are a few tricks to use it but I�m finding that it�s turning out to be a
favorite developer for me.

Coffee Shocked

Cheers

Jules

peterqd · Expire: 2014-01-04