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Adobe RGB or SRGB for Laboratories?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Adobe RGB or SRGB for Laboratories? Reply with quote

Do you print your digital photos at home, or do you use the services of Photo Printing Labs?

I recently had some prints done by a Lab from my digital photos. I gave them a DVD of my photos, converted to TIF and in Adobe RGB colorspace.
Well, the prints turned out much desaturated. Just like when you convert to JPGs for web and forget to convert colorspace from Adobe RGB to SRGB.

So I am wondering, perhaps the photo labs use SRGB as standard color space?
(Maybe they do that because they think that most people will have SRGB turned on by default and not even know about colorspace?)

What are your experiences on the subject?


PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know, it is better to hand in the photos in sRGB.
Two reasons:

1) You have a better control what the photos look like afterwards. Our screens cannot show AdobeRGB.

2) In AdobeRGB are "more" colours. But those cannot be reproduced by mini-labs. Thus they need to re-calculate the colour-workspace which, if not exactly done, results in rather flat colours.

I shoot in AdobeRGB, to have some kind of reserve, but then convert during post production into sRGB. It is, however, a good idea to store in AdobeRGB, since if you need to provide photos for magazine printing there will be better results for the convertion into CMYK.

Carsten


PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LucisPictor wrote:
As far as I know, it is better to hand in the photos in sRGB.
Two reasons:

1) You have a better control what the photos look like afterwards. Our screens cannot show AdobeRGB.

2) In AdobeRGB are "more" colours. But those cannot be reproduced by mini-labs. Thus they need to re-calculate the colour-workspace which, if not exactly done, results in rather flat colours.

I shoot in AdobeRGB, to have some kind of reserve, but then convert during post production into sRGB. It is, however, a good idea to store in AdobeRGB, since if you need to provide photos for magazine printing there will be better results for the convertion into CMYK.

Carsten


This sounds like a very wise advice, Carsten!
One that I will follow.

My next print batch for laboratories will be in SRGB. I will report about the results.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow! This thread is the answer to my prayers!

Untill now, I've tried to use my printer, home... I did use the labs... but the result was I lost a good piece of quality on transfering the image on paper. Sad (I did use just Adobe RGB savings)

Thanks a lot for advice.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome.

But please don't be too disappointed if you do not get the results you want immediately.

If you print yourself, you need to do some colour adjusting (of display and printer).

In a mini-lab I always ask them not to "work" at the photos but to leave them the way they are. Mostly they will deteriorate their quality if they try to improve them.

Their regular post production is good for the common snapshot, but not for crazy guys like us who optimise their digital images at home.

Fortunately, after a while I have found a rather good mini-lab. The guys there are quite flexible.

Carsten


PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First and foremost. ALL good labs will make it clear what colour space they use. If they don't I would think twice about using them. For the chepo prints plain old sRGB is best, but there is a Fuji profile. FF frontier Print PD but it is doubtfull the machines at Tesco/Asda will be set up anyway


PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Leslie wrote:
First and foremost. ALL good labs will make it clear what colour space they use.


I am not in direct contact with the labs, I live in a small town and have to deliver the originals to a photo shop - they in turn deliver to the photo lab courier. But I will ask the photo shop to get the information - thanks for the good suggestion.


PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orio wrote:
Rob Leslie wrote:
First and foremost. ALL good labs will make it clear what colour space they use.


I am not in direct contact with the labs, I live in a small town and have to deliver the originals to a photo shop - they in turn deliver to the photo lab courier. But I will ask the photo shop to get the information - thanks for the good suggestion.


First I would recommend you buy a good photo printer but I feel sure you already have one. So why would you be using what sounds like a pretty ordinary print service? I use an Asda (Walmart) one for quantities of 7x5 prints for sale 100 at a time, (Very cheap) but I know the staff well and they always reprint anything (NC) I am not 100% happy with. I sometimes think they use me to find out when to call the engineer in to recalibrate! Their prints can be good and are best for selling to the public but they are not a patch on those from the Epson on good paper (MX2 pro)
I also have up to 20 x 16 and 4 at time 10 x 8 prints or 2 11 x 16 done by a pro printer in my town he has the latest Epson machine (Huge) and really knows his stuff. He always sets the print up with me in PS on his computer before he saves to print. He also only charges ?7 for 16 inch from his 60cm wide paper. Before I found my local guy I used http://www.colormailer.com for large prints. Their enlargements/posters are done in Belgium and are pretty good quality at a reasonable price. They will also print Adobe RGB.


PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Leslie wrote:

First I would recommend you buy a good photo printer but I feel sure you already have one. So why would you be using what sounds like a pretty ordinary print service?


Because my home made prints look horrible. I have given up the hope to make my Epson Photo printers work correctly. They always add reddish cast to my prints. Yes I have calibrated the monitors correctly. So I maybe will make a last tentative by buying a Canon printer. Should it fail too, I will abandon home printing forever.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The usual problem with poor prints is a mismatch of colour profiles. First check your profile in Photoshop – Edit – Colour settings set the box ‘working spaces’ RGB to your colour space sRGB or Adobe RGB. Then check your image – Image – Mode – assign or Convert to profile. Now when you print always use Print with preview. A box opens and you set Colour Management and then below Print space profile and pick your profile whatever you set PS at. Then Print and go as normal picking your paper and size but go Custom Advanced ICM. The printer then takes the colour instruction from PS. Assuming all is right with your printer no blocked heads, paper type and the monitor is right it should match. No good getting a Canon printer (Nothing wrong with them) but Epson have always been the best. I run mine on cheap ink and have for years (The Photo Ex for 8 years) it even prints a BW with no colour cast. I wouldn’t go for any other printer because of the cost of ink. If I pay that much for ink I might as well have the pro do it for me.

Edit Out of interest I just checked the colour profiles in Adobe RGB and sRGB in PS. Adobe is redder. if you do nothing and you are shooting Adobe RGB your printer will print its default version of RGB so that is why your prints look red.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LucisPictor wrote:
As far as I know, it is better to hand in the photos in sRGB.
Two reasons:

1) You have a better control what the photos look like afterwards. Our screens cannot show AdobeRGB.

Some screens can, but they are rather expensive and not in common use. But yes, for handing images to a printer who is probably not using color management of any sort, give them sRGB.

Also, when doing the conversion from AdobeRGB to sRGB, select 'relative colorimetric' method, not 'perceptual'; and ensure that black point compensation is on.

LucisPictor wrote:
2) In AdobeRGB are "more" colours. But those cannot be reproduced by mini-labs. Thus they need to re-calculate the colour-workspace which, if not exactly done, results in rather flat colours.

The flat colours do not arise from recalculation. They come from a lack of recalculation ... the numbers in AdobeRGB are treated as if they are sRGB, without any recalculation. As you say, the gamut (range of colors) in AdobeRGB is wider. So all the colours get compressed down towards the grey axis.

LucisPictor wrote:
I shoot in AdobeRGB, to have some kind of reserve, but then convert during post production into sRGB. It is, however, a good idea to store in AdobeRGB, since if you need to provide photos for magazine printing there will be better results for the convertion into CMYK.

This is good advice. IF you shoot RAW and thus, have 16-bit originals. If you shoot JPEG only, then because JPEG is only 8 bit, you may get more banding if usinga wider gamut. In that case its better to have your JPEGs shot in sRGB. But then, if the magazine asks for an uncompressed TIFF you have nothing to give them anyway.

(well ok in theory JPEG can be 12 bit. But its done in such a stupid way that no-one can use it - the relevant library can be compiled to handle either 8 but JPEGs or 12 bit JPEGs but not both at the same time. D'oh!)


PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am very happy with my R265 epson printer.
In PC
- AdobeRGB
- Printer Manages Color
- Relative Colorimetric
In Epson
- Color Controls
- Gamma 2.2
- Color Mode : Adobe RGB

I have a lot of A3 print in my kitchen and as my printer is only A4 I glue 2 pages.
Lot of people see my print and nobody never ask me why they are cut
I also print posters 3x3 A4 but it's tricky to cut & glue them
Service like colormailer ask 20 euros for a 60x90 and print on pigment inkjet
I should give a try but I don't wait better result


PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In general, use sRGB unless:

- You print yourself your photos, as Poilu
- You know your lab very well, and they use AdobeRGB (most of them don't)

If you shoot RAW, the choose between AbobeRGB/sRGB is done in the computer, not in the camera. RAW is always the best idea.

In my opinion, for usual shots (not very big printed and not heavy processed), AdobeRGB is only a burden.