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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 11664
Location: West Emilia
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 Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: Re: My impression |
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| LucisPictor wrote: | The problem only is that you need to have the lens first before you can try it. Tests are supposed to help with your decision.
It would be great if we could try-before-buy our gear! |
I like it better the way Veijo does. He takes a lens out and shoots his surroundings: the university, the ships in the harbour... the fact that he always depicts the same subject helps to see how different lenses operate. At the same time, his are never test shots, they are always photograph, so if a lens has defects like chromatic aberration, you can still see them, but you see them in the context of a normal photo, and you can see how much it impacts the global result and how much important it is compared with other lens characteristics. I for instance would have no problem buying a lens with a little CA, if it renders the rest of the image in a way that is pleasing me. The whole, in photography, is made of the particulars, but it's always something more than the particulars.
A case in point: take the Jupiter-9 and the Contax Sonnar 85. I have used both extensively for street portraiture. I am sure, that if i set up a bookshelf test, the results of the two lenses would be quite near if not identical. Yet, when I use the lenses for what they were made for (portraits), I always end up liking the Contax more. Why? It's not a matter of price, and neither a matter of fractional differences in the sharpness that you can notice from a beer label closeup. It's a matter of the whole photograph, the whole output. The same does not happen, for instance, with the Jupiter-37. In Budapest, I had with me both the Rollei Sonnar 85 (which is about the same lens design as the Contax), and the Jupiter-37 which is a 135mm focal lenght. But in spite of the focal lenght difference, I now am not able to tell if a slide was taken with the Rollei or the J-37, unless I used both in a row and can tell by judging the different enlargements.
So the fact is that the output of the Jupiter-37 is much like that of a Zeiss Sonnar, while the output of the Jupiter-9, in spite of its direct Sonnar heritage, it's not. And while it would be equivalent for me to use the Sonnar 85 or the Jupiter-37, it would not be the same to use the Sonnar 85 or the Jupiter-9. And the bottom point of all this, is, that I would have NEVER been able to reach these conclusions from a simple bookshelf test. I needed to take the lenses out to real photo action, in order to understand.
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_________________
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ХОРИОС-61 ( ώρεος ) : Lens sana in corpore sano
Main Tools:
LENSES: Carl Zeiss, Leitz, Soviet, old Nikkors, others.
DSLR: Canon EOS 5D, 50D. SLR: Contax AX, RX, 167MT; Voigtländer Bessaflex TM; Praktica FX2; Nikon FM2, F70.
RANGEFINDERS: Contax G2, Kiev-4, Voigtlaender Bessa-T, Canonette QL17. MEDIUM FORMAT: Pentacon 6, Zeiss Super Ikonta, Agfa Record II.
Read Full List HERE
www.timelessphotography.eu
www.oriofoto.net
"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. " (George Orwell)
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 11664
Location: West Emilia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Richard_D wrote: | | I really enjoy these tests even if they only show how then lens performs in one particular situation. |
Yes, it's always nice to see that people exists that are caring about the lenses and taking the time to set up these tests, absolutely.
THis is true regardless of the fact that one then consider the tests useful or not.
_________________
_
ХОРИОС-61 ( ώρεος ) : Lens sana in corpore sano
Main Tools:
LENSES: Carl Zeiss, Leitz, Soviet, old Nikkors, others.
DSLR: Canon EOS 5D, 50D. SLR: Contax AX, RX, 167MT; Voigtländer Bessaflex TM; Praktica FX2; Nikon FM2, F70.
RANGEFINDERS: Contax G2, Kiev-4, Voigtlaender Bessa-T, Canonette QL17. MEDIUM FORMAT: Pentacon 6, Zeiss Super Ikonta, Agfa Record II.
Read Full List HERE
www.timelessphotography.eu
www.oriofoto.net
"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. " (George Orwell)
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 7119
Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Orio, I really agree to you. It is much better to "use" the lens in real life.
But what I was pointing at is that you cannot do that with a lens you do not own. So if you need to decide between lenses you do not have, you need to rely on tests (or on photos somebody else has shot which also is not always a really reliable source).
_________________
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don’t.
"Schnäppchenjäger" | "KAPCTEH" | "Karusutenu" | "Carsten" | T-shirt?
Cams in use: EOS 40D, EOS 350D, EOS500, Spotmatic SPII, Yashica-24, EXA I & 1c, Zenit EM; Oly 35RC,Minolta Hi-Matic E & F, Ricoh 500RF, Yashica Electro 35 GS, FED-3b and some others...
Lenses in use: Asahi Pentax: 2.8/28;3.5/35;1.4/50;1.7/50;2.8/105;28-80 | Canon (AF):1.8/50;17-85;75-300 | Former GDR: Pentacon 3.5/30; Pentaflex 1.8/50; CZJ 2.8/50; CZJ 4/135; Pentacon 4/200 | Fujinon: 43-75 | Hanimex: 3.5/23; 4/100;80-200 | Hoya: 25-42;80-205 | Kiron: 2/28;70-210 | Leica: Elmarit-R 2.8/35 | Mamiya: 1.8/55 | Minolta: 1.7/50 | Nikkor: 2.8/24;2/35;2/50;1.2/55;1.8/85;3.5/135 | West German: Ludwig 2.9/50; Meyer 2.8/100; Will 4.5/105; Schneider 3.5/135;Enna 3.5/135; Zeiss 4/135;Isco 4/135; Enna 4.5/240 | Olympus: 3.5/28;1.4/50;3.5/135 | Rikenon: 1.7/50;35-70 | Rollei/Voigtländer: 1.4/55;1.8/50 | Russian: Peleng3.5/8; Zenitar2.8/16; MIR2.8/37; Volna2.8/50; Industar3.5/50; Industar3.5/5cm; Helios2/50; Helios2/58; Volna2.8/80; Jupiter2/85; Kaleinar2.8/100;Tair2.8/135; Jupiter3.5/135; Jupiter4/135; Telear3.5/200; Jupiter4/200; Tair4.5/300;RF: Jupiter2.8/35;Industar2.8/53 | Sigma: 28-85;28-105(AF);17-70(AF) | Soligor: 28-105;35-200;70-220 | Tamron: 2.5/24;2.5/135;2.8/135;60-300;70-210 | Tokina: 28-105;80-200;12-24(AF);70-210(AF) | Vivitar: 3.5/17;2/24;2/28;2.5/28;2.8/28 | Yashica: 1.7/50;2/5cm | Other Japanese: Cosina3.8/20; Petri2.8/28; Albinar2.8/28; Porst1.8/35; 2.8/135; Weltblick3.5/135; Beroflex 8/500; Spiratone28-200; Maginon70-210
Green are the lenses I shoot the most.
More? http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 11664
Location: West Emilia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| LucisPictor wrote: | Orio, I really agree to you. It is much better to "use" the lens in real life.
But what I was pointing at is that you cannot do that with a lens you do not own. So if you need to decide between lenses you do not have, you need to rely on tests (or on photos somebody else has shot which also is not always a really reliable source). |
I can't see the point. What makes the difference, for you, between a bookshelf test that someone else posts, and some normal photos that someone else posts?
If you don't own the lens, you are always going to need to judge on someone else's photos, and this is a given. So, then, why bookshelf tests should be preferable to photos like those that Veijo makes, for instance? It is always "someone else" that makes them.
_________________
_
ХОРИОС-61 ( ώρεος ) : Lens sana in corpore sano
Main Tools:
LENSES: Carl Zeiss, Leitz, Soviet, old Nikkors, others.
DSLR: Canon EOS 5D, 50D. SLR: Contax AX, RX, 167MT; Voigtländer Bessaflex TM; Praktica FX2; Nikon FM2, F70.
RANGEFINDERS: Contax G2, Kiev-4, Voigtlaender Bessa-T, Canonette QL17. MEDIUM FORMAT: Pentacon 6, Zeiss Super Ikonta, Agfa Record II.
Read Full List HERE
www.timelessphotography.eu
www.oriofoto.net
"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. " (George Orwell)
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 7119
Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Orio wrote: | | LucisPictor wrote: | Orio, I really agree to you. It is much better to "use" the lens in real life.
But what I was pointing at is that you cannot do that with a lens you do not own. So if you need to decide between lenses you do not have, you need to rely on tests (or on photos somebody else has shot which also is not always a really reliable source). |
I can't see the point. What makes the difference, for you, between a bookshelf test that someone else posts, and some normal photos that someone else posts?
If you don't own the lens, you are always going to need to judge on someone else's photos, and this is a given. So, then, why bookshelf tests should be preferable to photos like those that Veijo makes, for instance? It is always "someone else" that makes them. |
No, with "test" I am not referring to "bookshelf" tests but to tests that have been performed by professional magazines, for example.
I don't think that home-made bookshelf tests can really indicate how "good" (this is alone is a problematic word) a lens is, I would not buy a lens because it has performed well in someone's bookshelf test. No offence! I am including the ones I did, because I think you can never be sure if you have focussed correctly, just one point.
I agree that Vejio's example shots can show a lot about a lens' character. And I also agree that you only will see if you like a lens or not if you shoot with it.
But what I like to refer to are tests in photo magazines, but those test are hard to find. They all, of course, deal with new lenses.
That's why I love to find old magazines.
These pro tests can help with a decision. That's the point.
_________________
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don’t.
"Schnäppchenjäger" | "KAPCTEH" | "Karusutenu" | "Carsten" | T-shirt?
Cams in use: EOS 40D, EOS 350D, EOS500, Spotmatic SPII, Yashica-24, EXA I & 1c, Zenit EM; Oly 35RC,Minolta Hi-Matic E & F, Ricoh 500RF, Yashica Electro 35 GS, FED-3b and some others...
Lenses in use: Asahi Pentax: 2.8/28;3.5/35;1.4/50;1.7/50;2.8/105;28-80 | Canon (AF):1.8/50;17-85;75-300 | Former GDR: Pentacon 3.5/30; Pentaflex 1.8/50; CZJ 2.8/50; CZJ 4/135; Pentacon 4/200 | Fujinon: 43-75 | Hanimex: 3.5/23; 4/100;80-200 | Hoya: 25-42;80-205 | Kiron: 2/28;70-210 | Leica: Elmarit-R 2.8/35 | Mamiya: 1.8/55 | Minolta: 1.7/50 | Nikkor: 2.8/24;2/35;2/50;1.2/55;1.8/85;3.5/135 | West German: Ludwig 2.9/50; Meyer 2.8/100; Will 4.5/105; Schneider 3.5/135;Enna 3.5/135; Zeiss 4/135;Isco 4/135; Enna 4.5/240 | Olympus: 3.5/28;1.4/50;3.5/135 | Rikenon: 1.7/50;35-70 | Rollei/Voigtländer: 1.4/55;1.8/50 | Russian: Peleng3.5/8; Zenitar2.8/16; MIR2.8/37; Volna2.8/50; Industar3.5/50; Industar3.5/5cm; Helios2/50; Helios2/58; Volna2.8/80; Jupiter2/85; Kaleinar2.8/100;Tair2.8/135; Jupiter3.5/135; Jupiter4/135; Telear3.5/200; Jupiter4/200; Tair4.5/300;RF: Jupiter2.8/35;Industar2.8/53 | Sigma: 28-85;28-105(AF);17-70(AF) | Soligor: 28-105;35-200;70-220 | Tamron: 2.5/24;2.5/135;2.8/135;60-300;70-210 | Tokina: 28-105;80-200;12-24(AF);70-210(AF) | Vivitar: 3.5/17;2/24;2/28;2.5/28;2.8/28 | Yashica: 1.7/50;2/5cm | Other Japanese: Cosina3.8/20; Petri2.8/28; Albinar2.8/28; Porst1.8/35; 2.8/135; Weltblick3.5/135; Beroflex 8/500; Spiratone28-200; Maginon70-210
Green are the lenses I shoot the most.
More? http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 11664
Location: West Emilia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| LucisPictor wrote: |
No, with "test" I am not referring to "bookshelf" tests but to tests that have been performed by professional magazines, for example. |
OK, but these are a different thing, I think, from what we were talking about.
I would call them more like "scientific measurements" than "tests" as we commonly mean tests.
_________________
_
ХОРИОС-61 ( ώρεος ) : Lens sana in corpore sano
Main Tools:
LENSES: Carl Zeiss, Leitz, Soviet, old Nikkors, others.
DSLR: Canon EOS 5D, 50D. SLR: Contax AX, RX, 167MT; Voigtländer Bessaflex TM; Praktica FX2; Nikon FM2, F70.
RANGEFINDERS: Contax G2, Kiev-4, Voigtlaender Bessa-T, Canonette QL17. MEDIUM FORMAT: Pentacon 6, Zeiss Super Ikonta, Agfa Record II.
Read Full List HERE
www.timelessphotography.eu
www.oriofoto.net
"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. " (George Orwell)
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 7119
Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Orio wrote: | | LucisPictor wrote: |
No, with "test" I am not referring to "bookshelf" tests but to tests that have been performed by professional magazines, for example. |
OK, but these are a different thing, I think, from what we were talking about.
I would call them more like "scientific measurements" than "tests" as we commonly mean tests. |
OK. But these "scientific measurements" are what I was referring to. 
_________________
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don’t.
"Schnäppchenjäger" | "KAPCTEH" | "Karusutenu" | "Carsten" | T-shirt?
Cams in use: EOS 40D, EOS 350D, EOS500, Spotmatic SPII, Yashica-24, EXA I & 1c, Zenit EM; Oly 35RC,Minolta Hi-Matic E & F, Ricoh 500RF, Yashica Electro 35 GS, FED-3b and some others...
Lenses in use: Asahi Pentax: 2.8/28;3.5/35;1.4/50;1.7/50;2.8/105;28-80 | Canon (AF):1.8/50;17-85;75-300 | Former GDR: Pentacon 3.5/30; Pentaflex 1.8/50; CZJ 2.8/50; CZJ 4/135; Pentacon 4/200 | Fujinon: 43-75 | Hanimex: 3.5/23; 4/100;80-200 | Hoya: 25-42;80-205 | Kiron: 2/28;70-210 | Leica: Elmarit-R 2.8/35 | Mamiya: 1.8/55 | Minolta: 1.7/50 | Nikkor: 2.8/24;2/35;2/50;1.2/55;1.8/85;3.5/135 | West German: Ludwig 2.9/50; Meyer 2.8/100; Will 4.5/105; Schneider 3.5/135;Enna 3.5/135; Zeiss 4/135;Isco 4/135; Enna 4.5/240 | Olympus: 3.5/28;1.4/50;3.5/135 | Rikenon: 1.7/50;35-70 | Rollei/Voigtländer: 1.4/55;1.8/50 | Russian: Peleng3.5/8; Zenitar2.8/16; MIR2.8/37; Volna2.8/50; Industar3.5/50; Industar3.5/5cm; Helios2/50; Helios2/58; Volna2.8/80; Jupiter2/85; Kaleinar2.8/100;Tair2.8/135; Jupiter3.5/135; Jupiter4/135; Telear3.5/200; Jupiter4/200; Tair4.5/300;RF: Jupiter2.8/35;Industar2.8/53 | Sigma: 28-85;28-105(AF);17-70(AF) | Soligor: 28-105;35-200;70-220 | Tamron: 2.5/24;2.5/135;2.8/135;60-300;70-210 | Tokina: 28-105;80-200;12-24(AF);70-210(AF) | Vivitar: 3.5/17;2/24;2/28;2.5/28;2.8/28 | Yashica: 1.7/50;2/5cm | Other Japanese: Cosina3.8/20; Petri2.8/28; Albinar2.8/28; Porst1.8/35; 2.8/135; Weltblick3.5/135; Beroflex 8/500; Spiratone28-200; Maginon70-210
Green are the lenses I shoot the most.
More? http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65
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maddog10
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 979
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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I believe there is something to be learned from all tests. 'Real life', 'bookshelf' and 'scientific' will all show you a bit of what the equipment is capable of. I enjoy looking at all the sample shots and learn a little from each one. I also know that there is a margin for user error or variables (such as changing light conditions).
Please continue to show ALL tests, they benefit me greatly!
_________________
Michael Hill
DSLR: Nikon - D3, D80, D40 Canon- 5D
Film: Nikon - F5, F2, F, EM, FG, FE, Nikkorex Contax - G2 Mamiya - M645 Olympus - OM1 Praktika - LTL PLC3 Pentax - Spotmatic SP Yashica Electro 35 GSN Zenit - B
Nikon Mount Lens: Nikkor - 2.8/20 2.8/24 2/28 2.8/28 3.5/28 2/35 2.8/35 1.4/50 1.8/50 2/50 1.8/85 2/85 2.5/105 2.8/135 3.5/135 2.8/180 4/200 4.5/300 Micro 2.8/55 Micro 4/200 Zoom 3.5/36-72 3.5/43-86 4/70-210 Sigma - Zoom 2.8-4/35-70 Soligor - 3.5-4.5/28-80 4.5/80-200 5.6/95-310 Tamron - SP 2.8-3.8/35-80 SP 3.5/70-210 3.8-4/80-210 Vivitar - 3.8/19 2.8/28 (Series 1) 3.5-4.5/19-35 (Kiron) 3.5/70-210 Zenitar - 2.8/16
Contax Mount Lens: Carl Zeiss - Biogon 2.8/21 Biogon 2.8/28 Planar 2/45 Sonnar 2.8/90 Yashica - 4.5/70-210
M42 Screw Mount Lens: CZJ - Flek 2.8/20 Flek 2.4/35 Tessar 2.8/50 3.5/135 Focal - 2.8/28 Helios - 44-2 2/58 44M 2/58 44M-4 2/58 40 1.5/85 Industar - 50-2 3.5/50 Jupiter - 37A 3.5/135 Meyer Optik Gorlitz - Domiplan 2.8/50 MIR - 24M 2/35 1B 2.8/37 Pentacon - 2.8/29 1.8/50 2.8/135 Pentax - SMC 3.5/135 SMC 4/200 SMC 5.6/400 Rexatar - 6.3/400 Rokinon - 3.5-4.5/35-135 Sears - 2.8/28 2.8/135 4.5/90-230 Soligor - 2.8/105 3.5-4.5/28-80 |
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peterqd
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 2337
Location: High Wycombe, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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I would have liked to have seen some corner crops - the test is misleading without them. I would bet the Helios 44M-4 would have got a much lower rating wide open.
And what camera was used for the test? If it's a "crop" camera the test tells me very little about how the lenses would perform full frame.
_________________
Lenses: M42 - CZJ 2.8/20, 2.4/35, 1.8/50, 2.8/50, 3.5/135 - Meyer/Pentacon 1.8/50, 2.8/50, 2.8/135, 4/200
Russian - J9, J21, J37A, M1v, M24m, I50-2, H44m-4 Vega12
Takumar 3.5/28, 3.5/35, 1.4/50, 1.8/55, 1.9/85, 3.5/135 - Vivitar 2.8/28
K-mount : Pentax-M 2.8/28, 1.7/50 - Tamron zooms :SP28-80, SP35-80, SP60-300, 80-210
DSLR:Canon 400D 35mm SLR: Pentax Spotmatic SP, SPII, SPF, ESII, K2, ME Super, P30 - Chinon CE-3 - Minolta XG-M - Praktica Nova 1B, PLC2
Rangefinder: Zorki-4, Beauty Light-o-matic III Medium Format: Yashica-Mat 124G |
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voe
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| peterqd wrote: | I would have liked to have seen some corner crops - the test is misleading without them. I would bet the Helios 44M-4 would have got a much lower rating wide open.
And what camera was used for the test? If it's a "crop" camera the test tells me very little about how the lenses would perform full frame. |
Maybe I will manage next Saturday to do an outdoor test of a brick wall and will post the result here.
The camera is Pentax K10D, 1.5 crop factor.
_________________
Body: Pentax K10D Prime lenses: Mir-1, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7,Mamyia Secor 55mm f/1.8, MC Pentacon 50mm 1.8, Helios-77M-4, Helios-44-2, Volna-9, Vivitar 55mm f/2.8 Macro (1:1), Jupiter-9, Jupiter-37A MC, Tair-3S. |
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voe
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I did an outdoor test today and this is my test scene:
This is a resized version of the center sharpness test.
Follow the link to see the 100% crops of the center of each shots:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/voe/2441986509/sizes/o/
Considering the focal length advantage for the Nokton the Pentax-M 50mm is still managing to deliver better sharpness.
Again the Nokton has a lot of PF between f/1.4 and f/2, while the Pentax-M 50mm has some at f/1.7 but the PF is completely gone by f/2.
_________________
Body: Pentax K10D Prime lenses: Mir-1, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7,Mamyia Secor 55mm f/1.8, MC Pentacon 50mm 1.8, Helios-77M-4, Helios-44-2, Volna-9, Vivitar 55mm f/2.8 Macro (1:1), Jupiter-9, Jupiter-37A MC, Tair-3S. |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 14626
Location: Budapest,Hungary
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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These kind of test was the way to manufacturer concern about sharpness only , nothing else , because people doing test like this.
_________________
Olympus E-1,Nikon FA,Pentax MX,Praktica VLC3,Olympus-OM2N,Yashica Eletro 35 GN,Exakta Varex IIb,BESA L,Yashica MAT 124G
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Carl Zeiss Jena:Flektogon 2.8/20mm,4/25mm,2.4/35,2.8/65mm,4.5/4cm Tessar, 8/500mm Fernobjektiv
Pancolar 1.4/55mm,1.8/50mm,1.8/80mm,Tessar 2.8/50mm,Biotar 2/58mm,1.5/75mm,1.5/7,5cm
Carl Zeiss: Sonnar 2.8/135,2.8/180mm,Tessar 4/135mm
Nikon: 3.5/20mm,2.8/28mm,1.4/35mm,1.4/50mm,1.2/50mm,2/50mm,1.8/105mm,2.5/105mm,4/200mm macro,4.5/300mm
Pentax: Pentax 1.2/50mm,1.8/85mm,4/200mm
Helios: Helios-40 1.5/8,5cm,Helios-44-1 2/58mm,Helios-44-2 2/58mm
Olympus OM: 3.5/18mm,3.5/21mm,1.4/50mm,3.5/55mm macro,2.8/135mm,2/90mm macro,35-70mm,60-250mm
Meyer: 4.5/35mm Primagon,Primoplan 1.9/58mm,1.9/75mm,2.8/100mm,Orestegor 2.8/135mm,4.5/40 Helioplan
Leica: 4/100 Macro Elmar,2.8/90 Elmarit last version
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