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ZoneV
Joined: 09 Nov 2009 Posts: 1633 Location: Germany
Expire: 2011-12-02
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:12 am Post subject: |
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ZoneV wrote:
I would think not 3D.
But: I have not the ability to make a safe discrimination between 3D pictures and "flat" pictures. Probably it is too late in the evening to see 3D _________________ Camera modification, repair and DIY - some links to look through: http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/index-en.html
I AM A LENS NERD!
Epis, Elmaron, Emerald, Ernostar, Helioplan and Heidosmat.
Epiotar, Kameraobjektiv, Anastigmat, Epis, Meganast, Magnagon, Quinar, Culmigon, Novotrinast, Novflexar, Colorplan, Sekor, Kinon, Talon, Telemegor, Xenon, Xenar, Ultra, Ultra Star. Tessar, Janar, Visionar, Kiptar, Kipronar and Rotelar.
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martinsmith99
Joined: 31 Aug 2008 Posts: 6943 Location: S Glos, UK
Expire: 2013-11-18
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:08 am Post subject: |
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martinsmith99 wrote:
ZoneV wrote: |
I would think not 3D.
But: I have not the ability to make a safe discrimination between 3D pictures and "flat" pictures. Probably it is too late in the evening to see 3D |
I tend to agree. I can see the 3D effect with stereo images but from a single flat 2D image I'm at a loss as to how it can be 3D. _________________ Casual attendance these days |
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ZoneV
Joined: 09 Nov 2009 Posts: 1633 Location: Germany
Expire: 2011-12-02
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:21 am Post subject: |
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ZoneV wrote:
Sometimes I see a kind of 3D (not real 3D) in an flat image - but in most images in the thread I see none of that. In some images I see a bit 3D, but not reliable. _________________ Camera modification, repair and DIY - some links to look through: http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/index-en.html
I AM A LENS NERD!
Epis, Elmaron, Emerald, Ernostar, Helioplan and Heidosmat.
Epiotar, Kameraobjektiv, Anastigmat, Epis, Meganast, Magnagon, Quinar, Culmigon, Novotrinast, Novflexar, Colorplan, Sekor, Kinon, Talon, Telemegor, Xenon, Xenar, Ultra, Ultra Star. Tessar, Janar, Visionar, Kiptar, Kipronar and Rotelar.
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008 Posts: 4045 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Spotmatic wrote:
I find this a very good example of perceived 3D. It's a short movie clip shot with the SMC PENTAX 1:2/28 (same as the Zeiss Distagon "Hollywood").
http://vimeo.com/7028401 _________________ Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Here's the image (a photo I took in Lucca) that I post whenever there is a thread about "3d"
Distagon 2/28 on 5D
I choose this image because it breaks a couple of myths about 3D effect:
1) that it has to be wide open - as you can see, this photo is not. You have to go very far into the background to see a noticeable blur;
2) that it needs strong directional light - as you can see, here the day was overcast and dull and the light had no direction (and no shadows) what so ever.
What surfaces from the analisys of this photo, is that we have 5 different planes:
A) Foreground (the ad stand)
B) 2nd foreground (the car and street lamp)
C) middle ground (the bike and stop sign)
D) background (the trees and busses)
E) far background (houses in the distance)
The central foreground element (ad stand) creates two perspective "fugues": one at the right, the strongest one due to the many visual elements, that follows an imaginary path that goes through the "wings" provided by the ad stand, street lamp, bike, stop sign, first tree, second tree. These elements are placed alternatively (left-right-left-right-left-right) which creates the feeling of the imaginary path.
The other, weaker, perspective fugue is at the left, and follows the main road. The reason is weaker is because it has less elements of interest and also because the blue bus blocks the view in a crucial point.
As we learned from school, the perspective in a 2D image helps creating an illusion of depth. but what it does is, it mainly provides the proportions that make the scene realistic. To be really 3D, to "pop", as they say, the drawing, that is the way the elements are represented, is crucial.
And here is where the character of the lens comes in.
I always found that lenses with a smooth bokeh provide less pop and "3D" than lenses with a busier bokeh. Not super busy (as it would be distracting), but "lively" enough to create the feeling that we are still looking at a real object (although blurred) and not at a painted blur or "wash".
Another important feature is the microcontrast, that is the ability of the lens to differentiate between the smallest light-dark transitions in an image. Microcontrast is 50% of what we call "sharpness". The other 50% of sharpness is resolvance (the amount of information that is recorded in a given unit of flat photo space). For sharpness, both elements must be present. But for 3D, the resolvance is not that important. Microcontrast is what counts.
A good example of why microcontrast is important for 3D, is the bike.
In this photo, the bike is in the middle ground. The distance from the shooting point and the relatively small size of the bike make it impossible for it to have a lot of detail displayed. But what counts for the 3D effect is not that all wheel rays are rendered. What counts, is that what is rendered of the bike stands out clearly from the image plane following it. And this happens well here because the Hollywood lens has an excellent microcontrast.
The aperture, as we can see, does not have to be wide open. Actually, I find that on the contrary, in most cases wide open makes 3D more difficult. The reason is that wide open tends to give detail only to the object in the foreground, while all the following image planes (we have counted 5 of them in this photo) tend to end up equally blurred - so for instance in this scene the background and far background would look uniformly blurred with no distinction, and the middle ground (bike, stop sign) would lose a lof of the microcontrast benefit, because the higher blur caused by the wide open aperture would smear the smaller contrasts into a larger more confused image.
The key of 3D perception in an image is to provide the image with the right amount of differentiation between the different image planes. This is up to the photographer. The photographer must be able to "read" the scene and understand which of the available apertures will give him the most differentiation between the different image planes.
Another element that is important in 3D perception is the so called "curvature of field" of the lens. This is not very evident in this image. To be evident, we should have a near foreground object that has some important depth (like an automobile seen from the front or the back) and that takes at least half of the frame, from the centre to one edge.
In my photo, the ad stand is too small and not enough deep to illustrate the curvature of field visibly.
Technically speaking, curvature of field in a lens is a defect. A shortcoming. It means that the lens does not represent with an equal amount of focusing two points that are at the same distance from the lens but in different places of the frame.
Most fast lenses have some curvature of field. But some have more than others. Being strictly related to the spherical aberrations, Zeiss lenses tend to have more curvature of field than Japanese lenses, for instance. This because the "philosophy" of lens building at Zeiss privileges a classic optical design, that uses only spherical elements and corrects the aberrations through the use of expensive optical glass and the careful design of the optical elements. Japanese lenses, instead, tend to use a lot more ashpherical elements, which are able to correct the aberrations without the need to resort to expensive optical glass formulas.
As a result of this philosophy, the fast lenses in the Zess catalogue tend to have a significant and visible curvature of field at wide open apertures. Curvature of field attenuates as the iris is stopped down, but in fast lenses there are usually some traces of it also in the range of the first two or so stops after wide open. This is the reason why I often use apertures that are between 1 and 2,5 stops after wide open when I want to give the most 3D effect - of course, the choice must also take into account the scene and how the elements of the scene are placed, like I described above.
I hope that I have described sufficiently what is my own perception of 3D in a flat image and which are the "rules" that in my vision help to create it.
In this image that I posted, there is no objects that strikingly "pops out" of the scene. But if I imagine that my eyes are my feet, and if with them I imaginarily start to walk the sidewalk on the right, and move through it, passing by the ad stand, then the street lamp, then the car, then the bike, then the stop sign, then I cross the road and reach the trees, then farther more and I reach the busses... if I do that path with my eyes, I can clearly perceive, as I go through it, the distance and the "air" between the elements.
That may be subtle, and perhaps not apparent for everyone, but that is when I call a picture to have the "3D".
_ _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
Look at this post in a German forum.
Amazing! _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
LucisPictor wrote: |
Look at this post in a German forum.
Amazing! |
Yes, good one. _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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Excalibur
Joined: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 5019 Location: UK
Expire: 2014-04-21
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Excalibur wrote:
I've noticed how colour can make a subject pop:-
BC1 and Praktica CZJ 28mm
Canon FDN 200mm f4
_________________ Canon A1, AV1, T70 & T90, EOS 300 and EOS300v, Chinon CE and CP-7M. Contax 139, Fuji STX-2, Konica Autoreflex TC, FS-1, FT-1, Minolta X-700, X-300, XD-11, SRT101b, Nikon EM, FM, F4, F90X, Olympus OM2, Pentax S3, Spotmatic, Pentax ME super, Praktica TL 5B, & BC1, , Ricoh KR10super, Yashica T5D, Bronica Etrs, Mamiya RB67 pro AND drum roll:- a Sony Nex 3
.........past gear Tele Rolleiflex and Rollei SL66.
Many lenses from good to excellent. |
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ManualFocus-G
Joined: 29 Dec 2008 Posts: 6624 Location: United Kingdom
Expire: 2014-11-24
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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ManualFocus-G wrote:
Yes, colour and contrast definately help.
I shot a roll of CF yesterday with my Meyer Optik 135/2.8 and was amazed by the pop! I think the bright sunshine helped
Nice samples BTW! _________________ Graham - Moderator
Shooter of choice: Fujifilm X-T20 with M42, PB and C/Y lenses
See my Flickr photos at http://www.flickr.com/photos/manualfocus-g |
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dude163
Joined: 21 Mar 2010 Posts: 726 Location: New Brunswick , Canada
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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dude163 wrote:
1958 elmar 90 F4 _________________ Stormtrooper white Pentax K-X m42 adapter
Soviets: Helios 44m-6 and 40-1 , Pentacon 50mm f1.8
Taks : ST 28mm f3.5 , ST 35mm f3.5, SMC 50mm f1.4 , ST 55mm f2 , SMC 135 f 3.5 , ST 200 f 4
CZJ Tessar 50/2.8 1954 model
Leica m8u : Rigid cron 50/2 Elmar 90/4 Elmarit 135/2.8 Jupiter8 50/2 Serenar 85/2
my flickr : http://www.flickr.com/photos/riverviewfoto/
Vintage lens blog : http://dude163.blogspot.com/
500px : http://500px.com/roberttwilson |
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
This also shows a nice 3D effect:
Zeiss Distagon 1.4/35 @ EOS 5D _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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estudleon
Joined: 15 May 2008 Posts: 3754 Location: Argentina
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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estudleon wrote:
LucisPictor wrote: |
Look at this post in a German forum.
Amazing! |
Excuse me, Lucispictor. But I find the image with very confuse background and a limited tonal range.
I think that with a more out of focus backgropund and more tonal separation, the 3-D effect was more strong.
I guess that the tree could be more sharp to benefit the effect.
Rino. _________________ Konica 2,8/100
CZJ: 4/20, 2,4/35, 1,8/50 aus jena, 3,5/135MC, Pentacon 1,8/50
Pentax S-M-C-1,4/50
Helios 44-3
Mamiya 2,8/135
Misc. : jupiter 9
Stuff used:
A) SRL
Alpa 10 D - kern macro Switar 1,9/50 -black, Kilffit apochromat 2/100.
Asahi pentax spotmatic super takumar 1,4/50
Contaflex super B tessar 2,8/50 Pro-tessar 115
Leica R3 electronic summicron 2/50 elmarit 2,8/35
Konica Autoreflex 3 (2 black and chrome one), TC, T4. 2,8/24, 3,5/28 not MC and MC, 1,8/40, 1,4/50, 1,7/50 MC and not MC, 1,8/85, 3,2/135, 3,5/135, 4/200
Minolta XG9 2,8/35, 2/45, 3,5/135
Nikkormat FTn 1,4/50, 2,8/135
Fujica ST 801, 605, 705n. 3,5/19, 1,4/50, 1,8/55, 4/85, 3,5/135.
Praktica MTL 5 and a lot of M42 lenses.
Voigtlander. Bessamatic m, bessamatix de luxe, bessamatic cs, ultramatic and ultramatic cs.
Skoparex 3,5/35, skopagon 2/40, skopar 2,8/50, skopar X 2,8/50, super lanthar (out of catalogue) 2,8/50, dinarex 3,4/90, dinarex 4,8/100, super dinarex 4/135, super dinarex 4/200, zoomar 2,8/36-83, portrait lens 0, 1 and 2. Curtagon 4/28 and 2,8/35
Canon AV1, 1,8/50
Rolleiflex SL35 and SL35 E. 2,8/35 angulon, 2,8/35 distagon, 1,4/55 rolleinar, 1,8/50 planar, 4/135 tessar, 2,8/135 rolleinar, x2 rollei, M42 to rollei adap.
Etc.
RF
Yashica Minister III
Voightlander Vito, vitomatic I, Vito C, etc.
Leica M. M2, M3 (d.s.) and M4. Schenider 3,4/21, 2/35 summaron 2,8/35 (with eyes). Summicron 2/35 (8 elements with eyes), 2/35 chrome, 2/35 black, 1,4/35 pre asph and aspheric - old -, 2/40 summicron, 2,8/50 elmar, 2/50 7 elements, 2/50 DR, 2/50 - minolta version, 1,4/50 summilux 1966 version, 1,4/75 summilux, 2/90 large version, 2/90 reduced version of 1987, 2,8/90 elmarit large version, 4/135 elmar. |
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Lordcamel
Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 70
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Lordcamel wrote:
Hello there everyone,
First post for me here, and I think this picture might contribute to this post as I think it shows nice 3D effect.
I particularly agree with Orio post about 3D, I think small aperture will give you less IF and makes you think it's 3D whereas it's only the DOF effect and hier apeture will just help idstinguish what's really in focus and fade smoothly OOF and that (+the composition ) will give you 3D effect.
Also to note there are a lot of Zeiss lens in this post or other post regarding 3D effect it's really impressive, Wide angle or short tele but really lots of Zeiss.
Sorry for my english I'm a french MF fan |
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my_photography
Joined: 03 Nov 2008 Posts: 2772 Location: Pearl of the Orient
Expire: 2016-12-25
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:43 am Post subject: |
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my_photography wrote:
Nice photo of the cat. What lens did you use?
Welcome to the forum, Lordcamel. Perhaps you can introduce yourself a bit at the Photographer's Cafe forum. _________________
Zeiss: CJZ Flektogon 20/2.8, CJZ Flektogon 20/4, , CJZ Pentacon 29/2.8, CJZ Flektogon 35/2.4, CJZ Pancolar 50/1.8, Tessar 50/2.8, Biotar 7.5cm/1.5, CJZ Pancolar 80/1.8, CJZ Sonnar 135/3.5, CJZ Pentacon 135/2.8 CJZ Sonnar 200/2.8
Other Germany: Meyer Primoplan 50/1.8, Meyer Trioplan 100/2.8
Takumar: SMC 50/1.4 Super Tak 55/2, Super Tak 85/1.9, S-M-C 135/3.5, Super Tak 150/4
Russian: Zenith 16/2.8, Mir-24M 2/35, Volna-9 50/2.8, Helios 44M (58/2), Helios 44M-3 MC (58/2), Helios 40 (85/1.5), Tair 11A (135/2.8 )
Others: Sears 28/2.8, Sankor 35/2.8, Enna M�nchen Tele-Ennalyt 135/3.5
Zoom Sigma Zoom 28-85/3.5-4.5
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Lordcamel
Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 70
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Lordcamel wrote:
Thank you, I ll go and introduce myself asap.
The picture was taken using a D700 and 24 2.8 AF lens unfortunately it is not a manual focus lens, and I didn't focus manually on this one (as I was already crouching) ... but I wanted to show some 3D effect so .. |
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Lordcamel
Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 70
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Lordcamel wrote:
Is Zeiss 50 1.7 considered a good performer for "3d effect ?"
I'm testing lots of 50 mm lens to see which one suits me best and I need to test one Zeiss lens, and this one seems tack sharp, got the zeiss look, hope it has the zeiss 3d too |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10469 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
Lordcamel wrote: |
Is Zeiss 50 1.7 considered a good performer for "3d effect ?" |
http://forum.mflenses.com/contax-501-7-wo-5dii-t28244.html _________________ T* |
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Lordcamel
Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 70
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Lordcamel wrote:
Guess the answer is Yes ! |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Remember, you need a series of other factors, not just the lens. _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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Lordcamel
Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 70
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Lordcamel wrote:
Ofc , just looking for cheap lenses that can contribute to getting this 3d effect |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10469 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:50 am Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
Orio wrote: |
Remember, you need a series of other factors, not just the lens. |
+1, you need a 30:f1.2 on aps-c and a 25:f0.85 on m4:3 to make those pics _________________ T* |
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Lordcamel
Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 70
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Lordcamel wrote:
poilu wrote: |
Orio wrote: |
Remember, you need a series of other factors, not just the lens. |
+1, you need a 30:f1.2 on aps-c and a 25:f0.85 on m4:3 to make those pics |
I don't think I understood your statement very well ..
3d shots don't need 1.2 or 0.85 aperture ... nor a 50 mm equivalent lens |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10469 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
Lordcamel wrote: |
poilu wrote: |
Orio wrote: |
Remember, you need a series of other factors, not just the lens. |
+1, you need a 30:f1.2 on aps-c and a 25:f0.85 on m4:3 to make those pics |
I don't think I understood your statement very well ..
3d shots don't need 1.2 or 0.85 aperture ... nor a 50 mm equivalent lens |
I mean to make the same pics as in the 50:1.7 thread
while it is not necessary to use wide open to produce 3D look, using f8 on a p&s is the best way to kill 3D
check faq for crop to find conversions rules _________________ T* |
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Lordcamel
Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 70
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Lordcamel wrote:
I really don't see your point sorry I 'm missing something |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10469 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:33 am Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
Lordcamel wrote: |
I really don't see your point sorry I 'm missing something |
mon commentaire souligne l'importance du senseur dans la tridimensionnalité d'une image
mes images avec le 50:1.7 offre une atmosphère qui nécessiterait un 30:f1.2 sous aps-c et un 25:f0.85 sous m4:3 pour être reproduite
vu que tu utilise un D700, format 35mm, ce commentaire n’était pas adressé a toi mais plutôt un avertissement général _________________ T* |
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