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1st developed roll, disaster
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:01 pm    Post subject: 1st developed roll, disaster Reply with quote
I have developed my first roll (I mean, first on my own, I don't count those at the course).
It turned out a disaster Crying or Very sad
The film was all sticked together, like one solid unity, it looked like glued.
Only the first 1-2 poses in the beginning and end were developed.

What did I do wrong? Sad


PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some times the problem comes from the film : I already had hard time to put the roll on the spiral, when it had been developped, I understood : some of the perforations were broken Rolling Eyes


PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't know, I loaded the spiral like I tried many times, the film was rolled in, but evidently with no separation, why? And why it was glued together?

Damn... I lost what I expected to be some great photos.


PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What film was it?

I'm not sure I understand what happened. Was the film not on the spiral correctly or something?


PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st developed roll, disaster Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
I have developed my first roll (I mean, first on my own, I don't count those at the course).
It turned out a disaster Crying or Very sad
The film was all sticked together, like one solid unity, it looked like glued.
Only the first 1-2 poses in the beginning and end were developed.

What did I do wrong? Sad


Orio,

Did you use metal or plastic reel?

Jules


PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st developed roll, disaster Reply with quote
lulalake wrote:

Orio,
Did you use metal or plastic reel?
Jules


Plastic reel.
The tank brand is "Kaiser".

@ Martin
Film was Kodak Tri-X

-


PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry to hear Orio. I'm sure that something went wrong with the reel.


PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
sorry for the disappointment
but this is to learn..

sounds like a problem with the reel, actually as if the film was not loaded correctly


PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is Attila Jr (backfocused), you can see on the left it begins to disappear into non-developed:



and a couple of weirdos that came out of the roll:





Tri-X 4oo pushed to 1600


PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I had a Kaiser tank (sounds like some mighty German war-machine, but I mean a developing tank), and I didn't like it much—using Jobo tanks now. One problem with the reel in my Kaiser tank was that it has no indented spot where one can feel (with one's finger) that the film has gone properly on the spiral, so if it gets loaded incorrectly for some reason, it's difficult to tell in the dark…

I don't know why yours didn't load properly in the first place, however. Did you cut off the film leader and the end where it attaches to the spool? These can cause problems if left in. Another possibility is that the reel may have come loose during development, but I suppose you'd have noticed that.

I'd try loading an expendable test roll (e.g. this one if you didn't cut it up and if you managed to “unglue” it) in the dark like you would for real, then check that it has gone on properly, and perhaps even try shaking it around a closed tank with some water in there to see that something isn't broken and systematically coming loose during agitation.


PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The film has to run smooth thru the groves. Did it maybe get stuck while loading and did you forced it trying to free it? In this case the film could have jumped from one grove to the next getting in contact with the subsequent coil, then the liquids made the rest of the mess: the wet emulsion is very sticky. Now let's examine another possibility that come to my mind. Did you trim the corners in the beginning of the film? This practice is often recommended to facilitate the loading operation and it's, in my experience, perfectly correct, but ... there is a but: if you overdo the film is going to jump and we return to the previous described situation.
This is all what comes to my mind at the moment, hope it helps to shine a bit of light over the arcane.

Cheers, Marty.


PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:






i like this one!


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: 1st developed roll, disaster Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
I have developed my first roll (I mean, first on my own, I don't count those at the course).
It turned out a disaster Crying or Very sad
The film was all sticked together, like one solid unity, it looked like glued.
Only the first 1-2 poses in the beginning and end were developed.

What did I do wrong? Sad


My guess is insert film inside too far before winding -- teeth get spread apart, film winds onto itself instead of suspending, gets glued together when wet.


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for all the suggestions!

I will try to find a different tank than Kaiser - the local seller here only has Kaiser stuff.

Maybe the problem is that I did not feel when the loading ended and went too far?
Is it possible that by continuing spinning the "thing", the film already loaded will fold over itself?

About the end of the film, I did cut it, but I am not sure if I left some plastic in - difficult to tell in the dark

As for corners, yes I have cut them round...

-


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
... Maybe the problem is that I did not feel when the loading ended and went too far?
Is it possible that by continuing spinning the "thing", the film already loaded will fold over itself? ...


Could happen, yes.

Idea Load in daylight with some bad old film to watch closely what happens in there, how that could happen again.

Too bad about it, sorry for you. Unlike lab mess up or lost, no free roll here. Sad


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
Maybe the problem is that I did not feel when the loading ended and went too far?
Is it possible that by continuing spinning the "thing", the film already loaded will fold over itself?
It's surely possible, but you should have forced to make the film go beyond the end point. I think you should have noticed that. If you trimmed the corners too much that could have made easier for the film to go beyond the end point. All this is only possible if you cut off the spool before loading, otherwise the spool itself would have hit the guide at the loading point of the reel and stopped there ( at least in my reels). So cutting off the spool only after loading is a good method to avoid going beyond.

Orio wrote:
About the end of the film, I did cut it, but I am not sure if I left some plastic in - difficult to tell in the dark
Do you mean the tape which holds the film to spool? In this case it's not gonna do any harm. If you mean you could have cut off a bit of the spool I would say it's unlikely, too hard for not to notice.

Cheers, Marty.


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Disappointing for you Orio, but don't give up. I think one of two things happened - either the film got stuck in the groove and continuing to feed it in caused a "concertina" effect, or the end popped out of the groove and feeding in just wound the film onto itself every turn. I think the second is more likely.

Arkku's suggestion to practice with an expendable roll in daylight is excellent. At first you can watch the process of feeding in to see how it works, then you can practice with your eyes shut till you're confident. I wouldn't necessarily blame the tank till you've tested it.

What caused your film to feed wrongly? Could be a few things. Rounding the corners is something I've never done, I just snip off about 3mm at 45° so the sharp corners don't catch. Could be the reel was slightly damp? It needs to be desert dry - a short shot with a hairdryer just before loading is a good idea. Did you use the tank previously? Any old chemicals left in the groove will be hygroscopic salts which become slightly damp just from vapour in the air. Really thorough cleaning and drying is essential.

Forcing the feed when you feel a restriction, even just slightly, will end up with a problem. It needs to feel smooth right to the end of the film. That's why I never cut off the canister till the film is loaded. If you feel a restriction you can wind the film back and take a look.


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've found Ilford films to be a bit flimsy and have a habit of coming out of the spool; that's why I asked what film it was. Fuji films are much stiffer and I didn't get a problem with them. One tip I've been given is to put the film in the fridge for a while to stiffen it slightly. I haven't tried that yet though.

Loading the film into the tank is the only part of developing I find annoying. Until you get proficient in it it's an idea not to take any important shots. Also, sacrifice a roll of film of the type you wish to develope and just practice loading the spiral.


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you all for the advices.

Martin, I don't think that putting the film in fridge before developing is a good idea. The chemicals have to be at least at 20°C and the emulsion layer is sensitive to thermal choc.

Chemicals need to be the right temp. Letting the tank stand at room temperature after loading will solve the problem.


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My daughter ran into the same problem at photo camp... she's still not quite over the experience.

Some times, for no apparent reason, the film simply refuses to go smoothly. Other times, there are no problems whatsoever. When it refuses, there's nothing but to try to notice and start all over again. Sometimes it takes a few tries. Usually, if something is going wrong, it's apparent right away - the film should snake freely onto the spiral... and when all in, twisting the reel and pushing the end should make the whole film snake further into the spiral. If it doesn't, there may be a misfeed.


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It looks like a good thing to remind that the reel must be absolutely, totally dry otherwise the film will stick no matter what.

Marty.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
bad news Orio, but nevermind try again. I have to add that Marty is totally correct, but if the reel was just a bit wet, you couldn't put all the film into the reel, this is plain impossible as the gelatin makes the film "inflate"

As for trying in day light, it a very good idea, i proceed that way, oh its simple in daylight , but when all's dark it another story Very Happy Took me about 30 minutes and 6 times pulling the film off the reel in order to make it go straight in the reel. Worked .

Do'nt give up ! Go very slowly and try to lead the edges of the film with your thumbs. If there's some resistance and the film blocks, release it a bit backwards if needed ( where it blocked ) and go again.

Now my times of loadin a reel have dropped to 5 minutes. I am the Usain Bolt of slowness Wink


PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Carlsson wrote:
Sorry to hear Orio. I'm sure that something went wrong with the reel.


I think you are right. It may be that the reel separated a tiny amount during an inversion and allowed the film to come out of the grooves.

Orio I wouldn't use that reel again.
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